MANDATORY WARNING FOR ALL ANCIENT EGYPT POSTINGS AND COMMENTS:
My two posts on the hair of Ancient Egyptians (here and here)
This post is part of other arguments presented here.
You must go to the above link before you leave a comment here. I will also NOT allow anyone to suggest that any race could have any hair because the argument has been made in several posts and was answered several times (the hair of Ancient Egyptians is very common among whites and very uncommon among others, so the fact that all the major Egyptian figures had hair similar to whites shows that it is not just one guy here and there who had unusual hair color and texture, but rather all of them were part of the white race). Please go to the link above to see all the articles addressing it.
The hair argument is also part of a much bigger picture. It is NOT just the hair, it is also dental records and even DNA.
You must address all these issues instead of making a ridiculous argument that just because some blacks rarely have Caucasian-like hair, then that proves that Egyptians were black. The argument is preposterous on several levels that Afrocentrists are usually too dumb to understand.
Onto the post itself:
It seems like nothing sparks blacks like Ancient Egyptians. They seem much more agitated over Egypt than questions such as IQ, crime and affirmative action. So here’s some more:
- Queen Hetop-Heres II, of the Fourth Dynasty, the daughter of Cheops, the builder of the great pyramid had reddish blond hair. Her hair is painted a bright yellow stippled with little red horizontal lines, and her skin is white. (‘The Races of Europe’, Carleton Stevens Coon, New York City, Macmillan. 1939, p.98)
- Egyptian Female Pharaoh, Queen Hatshepsut, wife of Pharaoh Thutmosis II. She ruled Egypt after Thutmosis’ death in 1520 BC. Her hair was long and blond (see her mummy below).
- Biblical Joseph was Egyptian Prime Minister Yuya. His mummy was recovered and he had light, blond hair.
Below is a picture of his mummy:
- Queen Tiy (Taia,Tyre) was the daughter of Yuya. She was the mother of Akhenaten and the great grandmother of Tutankhamen.. She’s the most famous of Egypt’s queens in 18th Dynasty Egypt. This statue was found in the Temple of Hathor near the turquoise mines. Equally blond and Caucasian as you can see.
- Ramses II: Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, a famed Egyptologist, studied his mummy. Microscopic examinations showed that the hair roots contained natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his younger days, Ramesses II had been a red head. With age, his hair got even lighter. He also had wavy hair common among whites.
- Queen Hatshetrut had wavy, red hair. Here’s her picture:
Sitkamos with curly hair.
Unknown mummy, the first from the British museum morgue, one from the Hancock museum. This woman is from about 700 BC, and she has dead straight hair that looks very red:
Egyptian man from the year 600 BC from the same British Museum morgue:
Princess Nsikhonsu, with long wavy brown hair:
And another mummy with straight, brown hair:
Ancient Egyptians with straight, red hair:
is it possible the photos were tinted with photostop? I ask because the colors are brighter then the pictures and so looked tinted. I am not saying there werent red heads etc as I know there were, I just think it would be a good idea to cross check with other sources
found a place that says the Libyans were once blue eyed and blonde haired. during the Roman era there was a mass invasion from other countries due to globalzation and depressed wages( think mexicans in oregon) and the mix of the country was changed- the greeks I have heard were once blonde . I think the swarthies won but that once blondes and red heads and light skinned people were common in what we now think of as a place of dark people. The only place where this did not happen is where the swarthies never emmigrated or conquered in vast numbers
The White genepool was not diluted so much by emmigration or conquest, but by slavery. Just like the dumbshits in early America, the ancient Whites brought the darker people in their midsts as slaves, and over centuries, integrated them, to their own detriment.
One of my papers (peer-reviewed) talks about how, under some conditions, mummy hair can lighten (brighten) from atmospheric oxidation, which is why they always check the roots for the real color. Thus, the colors you see on the mummies are not always “natural” in that oxidation may make them look a little bizarre. Usually, however, what you see is basically what you get. Ramses’ red hair may not have been that exact shade, but it really was red.
Afrocentrics like to quote Herodotus about Egypt because he describes the “Egyptians” as dark or swarthy, and because he cited them as being committed to killing red-heads on sight. What they don’t bother to acknowledge is that the people he met were far to the south at Aswan, that by the time he lived, Egypt was a burnt-out remnant of the great empire, overrun by outsiders, and that the commitment to kill red-heads was undoubtedly the dark-people’s desire to seek “retribution” against the true ancient rulers and citizens of Egypt whom they had demonized.
Gee–foreigners overrunning a fading nation with nothing but hate in their hearts for the original founders who gave them so much–why does that seem so familiar to me?
I had no idea the Egyptians were that vicious- just checked up on the subject and they sacrificed red headed men to some god.If red heads were murdered then this would explain why you dont see that in egypt now.
I thought the people of Easter Island also hated red heads and sacrificed them, but I read this a long time ago.
the question is was the red hair because there were groups of whites (and by that I mean Celtic or Germanic whites,) living in Egypt, or was it just genetic mutation?
also there is a great book that traces the origins of the early Celts to northwestern China. (they were a separate people from the Turks who forced them west and the chinese)
One branch of the tribe remained which is why there are blue eyed reds in northwestern china.
the author found the mummy’s to have woven cloth in the same patterns that later showed up in the Scottish kilts. Sadly these mummies are in the hands of the chinese. They were very tall and had red hair or blond.
the red hair that is found in northern india and Persia , I think are from these early Celts as they moved west.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair
Interesting article on the origins of red-haired mummies found in the Taklamakan desert in China.
http://uyghuramerican.org/
I’m telling you, ginger folk are the last remnants of the pre-Ice Age global civilisation
–
simon
Looks like the beginnings of a very great website/blog. I have been working on a website for nearly a year about “The Race of the Ancient Egyptians” which will include numerous sources, images, info, etc. It’s going to be massive.
You seemingly educated people continue to miss the point entirely on this subject. I could care less what the type hair the Egyptians had in ancient times. What seems to be the hardest for people to conceptualize is that racism is very recent in our development. It didn’t matter what you looked like as long as you were Egyptian. It didn’t matter what you looked like as long as you were Roman. My point. There were people of various races in these empires, but guess who’s face gets left out. To claim Egypt as black is just as foolish as claiming it as white. You see, the people who have written history (the so called winners) dictate literature. You control that you control what people think. Blacks do not need Egypt. That would just be the iceing on the proverbial cake. Septimus Severus, Sundiata Kieta, Ghana Empire, Mali Empire, Songhai Empire, Axum on and on. So in reference to the “agitation” over Egypt, it’s more than that. It’s the fact of having to dig through so much muck to really get to the story. Thats where that “agitation” comes from. So go ahead. Egypt is yours. Have it. It was white as Germany wasn’t it. Still is today, it’s it.
Oh and guywhite…your biblical quote. All I can say is WOW buddy! Thats a pretty bold statement to kick off with. And please don’t start that whole Ham Sham and Japheth thing, and the Canaanites and all that crap. Thats just more of the before mentioned muck. Save folks a lot of time.
Is that the best you got? That racism is new? It’s new to the degree that people didn’t have contact before, but there were ethnic and tribal conflicts since the beginning of time.
But the point here is not racism. (Can blacks and leftists ever point their mouth without saying “racism”… like when you open your mouth to eat, do you still say, “racism” and then take a bite?)
Recognizing race isn’t racism. Race a biological fact. Liberals try to deny, but it is very much a biological fact.
The idea that there are no races is one of those things where the liberals ask, “who do you believe: me or your own lying eyes?”
Walk down the street of Chicago or Miami and you’ll easily tell who’s of what race. Take some Papua bushman who has no knowledge of America’s race relations, and he’ll be able to do the same.
Scientists have been attacked for classifying people into races and ethnic groups, so instead they created a new word “haplogroup”, which means the same exact thing, but sounds scientific and most people have no idea what it means.
But “haplogroup” is to race/ethnicity is what the phrase “people of color” is to the word “minorities”, aka it’s the same thing.
As for the Romans being partly black? Are you kidding me?!
Romans conquered some blacks, but that’s like saying that the English were partly black because they conquered Zambia.
And finally, all your great “empires” are nothing. They stumbled onto some natural resources that they sold to Europeans and Arabs.
But they created nothing. Where are the ancient African aqueducts? Great buildings? (and I don’t mean a few 1-story buildings in Zimbabwe that are inferior to the worst village in a European backwater.) Where are the great African theaters?
Books? Oh wait, you didn’t even have a written language.
You had an “oral tradition”, aka grandpa’s bullshit.
“Jerome” states: “I could care less what the type hair the Egyptians had in ancient times.”
Obviously this isn’t the place for you. This blog discusses such things as race. Egyptologists, scientists, anthropologists, geneticists discuss these things, including hair. Maybe you dont like the facts, but it is what it is and apparently you are all the more bitter for it.
“Jerome” states: “What seems to be the hardest for people to conceptualize is that racism is very recent in our development. It didn’t matter what you looked like as long as you were Egyptian. ”
“Racism” is older than the Egyptians themselves. Deuteronomy 15:6. Maybe you don’t like reading what the Egyptians had to say about negroids?
“Now after his majesty had slain the Asiatics, he ascended the river…to destroy the Nubian Troglodytes; his majesty made a great slaughter among them.” (inscription of Ahmose)
“He hath overthrown the chief of the Nubians, the black is helpless, defenseless in his grasp. He hath united the boundaries of his two sides, there is not a remnant among the curly-haired who can come attack him. There is not a single survivor among them. The Nubian troglodytes fall by the sword and are thrust aside in their lands. Their foulness, it floods their valley and their mouths like a violent flood, the fragments cut from them are too much for the birds, carrying off the prey to another place.” (Tombos Stela of Thutmose I; “We Can’t Go Home Again” – Clarence Walker 2001; “Ancient Egypt” – David P Silverman, 2003)
There is a long list of Egyptian remarks against the black Troglodytes, you will have to wait and see it on my website once its completed.
“Jerome” states: “There were people of various races in these empires, but guess who’s face gets left out.”
And why do they get “left out”? Because they were not “in there” to begin with; i.e. take for example the statue of Hemiunu – architect of the Great Pyramid of Giza, he has no negroid admixture whatsoever, yet you blacks seem to think (without any evidence) that Egypt was built by “blacks.”
[...worthless...]
“Jerome” states: “And please don’t start that whole Ham Sham and Japheth thing, and the Canaanites and all that crap.”
Great another favorite subject of mine!
Negros were depicted as slaves, look at the art, no need for rewriting history because someones feelings got hurt.
all races spent time as slaves, no need to make Pharohs black… look at the DNA analysis
[...] et al were all black. Like the Ancient Egyptians, such as red-headed Ramses II and the blond Queen Tiy were black. Hannibal [...]
[...] 10, 2009 by guywhite My two posts on the hair of Ancient Egyptians (here and here) provoked a great deal of controversy (I allowed it on the first post, but limited it on [...]
[...] two posts on the hair of Ancient Egyptians (here and [...]
[...] two posts on the hair of Ancient Egyptians (here and here) provoked a great deal of controversy (I allowed it on the first post, but limited it on [...]
Hmm. Have you been blog raiding?
Tiye’s dad wasn’t even an Egyptian, he’s so outstandingly white no anthropologist thinks he even comes close to being even the lightest Ethiopian black. There’s no way Tiye can be black, which makes a pure black Tutankamun impossible too (her grandson). There’s a youtube vid of Tiye that shows her very nicley, with her mid brown hair hennaed to red.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/great-look-at-tiye-and-kiya-mummies/
Most of the mummies have typically Caucasoid skulls and hairs, but a lot of the red colour is henna, not fading due to age. They hated to see grey hair and used to cover it with henna
Yes, judging from some early Egyptian mummies they were definitely European in appearance and morphology, but their own art shows them as being not typically “white”, suggesting that their was a change in their genetic makeup over time.
The true answer to the racial makeup of the ancient Egyptians is that they were most likely a fairer skinned race in their beginnings, but absorbed other darker skinned peoples into their empire and eventually became a hybridized race to the point that even the pharaohs became dark skinned over time.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Tutankhamun_emerging_from_lotus_flower.jpg
Considering that their art portrays themselves as being much darker than their neighbors in Syria, which they show having very fair skin, it’s most likely that the Egyptians were in fact a dark race. (Egyptians are on the far right with the Syrians at the far left, next to the black skinned Nubians).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Egyptian_races.jpg
The ancient Egyptians say that their homeland was the Land of Punt, which historians believe was located in the horn of Africa and founded by colonists from Mesopotamia. From the Land of Punt, it’s believed, came the people that would found the first dynasties of Egypt.
Judging from some sculptures of Egyptian royal class, it’s clear that some possessed unique facial features that are decidedly non-White which may have been from miscegenation with Black Africans, possibly even before they arrived at the Nile River Valley; there may have been mixture with the east Africans of the horn, which at that time was already populated by a distinct Black racial group with Caucasian features that strongly resemble the sculptures of some ancient Egyptians.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Somali_nomad_girls.jpg
Compare the features of the Somali girls to that of Tutankhamun or his mother Nefertiti:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Wiki_nefertiti_bittidjz.jpg
Many wrongly believe that east Africans are a hybrid race because of their Caucasian features and some wrongly have deduced from the presence of Caucasian genetic markers as proof of this race mixing. But genetic testing shows that they have had very little admixture over thousands of years. What this shows is that east Africans are a unique genetic grouping and are the surviving proto-Caucasian group from which Caucasian people came to be.
The question of the Egyptian race then comes down to classification and semantics. East Africans, with their thin noses, small jaws and wavy hair, very much do resemble ancient Egyptians as they portrayed themselves during the height of their civilization. It is to this that many Afro-centrists point as evidence of Egyptians’ “blackness”. But are east Africans even “black?” Genetically, they are far removed from the Zulus or other west African groups. The anthropologist, Carleton S. Coon, whom we owe much of our modern ideas of race, categorized them as being Caucasian.
American Blacks, being largely mixed to different degrees, have come to see any dark skinned person as being Black to the point that I’ve read many Afro centrists say that East Indians are a Black race.
At the same time, I don’t feel that it’s intellectually honest to say that the Egyptians were White, as by modern standards they would not be considered so, no more than a person from the Indian subcontinent would be considered White, though both groups may be Caucasian by classic racial classification. In other words, White people are Caucasian, but a Caucasian people may not necessarily be White.
Thank you, Sagat.
These are the kind of arguments against my thought that I absolutely love. Though they disprove some of what I wanted to argue (not completely, as they are still Caucasian, though not European white, but definitely not black), it helps me expand my understanding of the subject.
This was a thoughtful, well-argued, intelligent and educated response.
We still have the problem of the Egyptian civilization spreading from the Nile Delta southwards. (You know, up there right by where the whites were pouring in in huge numbers, as virtually every anthropologist, including Keita, has confirmed.) And we still have the problem of the modern Egyptians, who don’t really look very black at all, holding a clear genetic inheritance from their Ancient Egyptian ancestors. Last, we still have the problem of the rest of Africa entirely failing to create any advanced civilizations, and yet we are asked to believe that Ancient Egypt was a black creation, not a white one. I’m siding with the science.
Guy White, thank you for consideration of my viewpoints.
I wanted to expand on what I wrote earlier since HardLogic raised some issues.
Discussing the issue of the Egyptian race always seems to stir up controversy because the Egyptians were famously an advanced civilization and it seems that others want to claim their accomplishments as their own by trying to group them in with their own kind. This type of thinking is emotionally motivated and is illogical. It makes no sense for people of west African descent to try to claim Egyptians as their own and it makes just as little sense for people of northern European descent to do the same.
This idea of trying to lump different peoples into some monolithic group is an antiquated idea and modern genetics is showing the huge diversity among the people who fall under these artificially created racial groups. To really come to terms with the Egyptian race issue, one has to shed these old views about race and recognize that all people that fall under the arbitrary grouping of “Black” are not the same.
Let’s look at Africa. American Blacks come primarily from west Africa yet in their attempts to develop a sense of identity they have formed this idea of a pan African Black race. The people of Africa don’t share this view. A Zulu doesn’t consider himself the same as a San Bushman or a Congo pygmy and he shouldn’t. Genetically and physically they are not the same. They are part of distinct population groups that happen to inhabit the massive continent of Africa.
HardLogic points out that the rest of “black” Africa had failed to achieve any advanced civilization so he finds it unlikely that the Egyptians had any roots in Africa and instead must have been “white”. Well, this logic is faulty. The Khoisan people of southern Africa are the oldest genetically surviving people in the world. Physically different than any other group in Africa and having an average IQ of only 60, they failed to create any civilization whatsoever during their hundreds of thousands of years on the continent. The Bantu people of west African origin were able to develop an iron age civilization and eventually expanded across most of southern Africa. Using the same faulty logic, one could argue that it’s not possible that the Bantu people were able to to achieve this since the “black” Khoisan people never advanced beyond simple herding.
What needs to be understood is that all these various groups of Africa are not all the same despite the superficially similar features they may possess. It’s unfair and unreasonable to try to deny the accomplishments of one group because of the lack of accomplishments of another. It’s like saying that since the Guanches, which were White, of the Canary Islands were stuck in the stone age then the Carthaginians must not be White. It’ absurd.
Back to the Egyptians. As I wrote earlier, their writings say that their ancient homeland was in Punt, which from Egyptian records and writings of contemporary nearby cultures, places this land in the horn of Africa. Some scholars say that they came originally from Mesopotamia, but the Egyptian language doesn’t have ties to any Mesopotamian languages; it has it’s roots in the horn. This suggests that the original colonists absorbed the language and likely the people of the neighboring cultures before they travelled to the Nile River Valley.
The people of the horn have long confounded anthropologists because cranially and facially they group with Caucasians, yet their limb proportions show a tropical origin, grouping them with sub-Saharan peoples. This led most anthropologists to assume that they were mixed. The thinking about this group has changed recently. Here is a quote from a genetic study:
“The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity — and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis — makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) — that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe.”
Some Afro-centrists argue that the Egyptians had no White ancestry at all and were strictly of east African origin as anthropological findings have shown similar findings for ancient Egyptians, cranially Caucasian but with tropical limb proportions. Yet when describing the people of India, the Roman historian, Strabo, said that the northern Indians were similar in appearance to the Egyptians and the southern Indians were like the Ethiopians, except with straighter hair. Alexander the Great’s historian, Arrian, made the exact same observation about the Indians. This supports that the Egyptians were a dark skinned hybridized race, not a White or Black race, and they portrayed themselves as such.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Seti.jpg
It’s also important to remember that the Egyptian civilization lasted thousands of years and during that time there were large migrations of different peoples into the Nile Valley, many of them coming from neighboring areas, so naturally the population did not remain static for Egypt’s entire history.
Again and again I see this little game played regarding the Ancient Egyptians: Individuals with an agenda like to pretend that they were purely African. What is well establish in the anthropological record and the genetic record is that all of Northern Africa was flooded by Caucasians coming in from Eurasia at an increasing rate for tens of thousands of years. Play all the games you want; I’ll show you fifty references if you really need to see them, even Keita!
Let me be absolutely clear what I’m saying here so that you can be properly offended if you choose to be: I’m not saying that there was no African or specifically even black component to the average Ancient Egyptian genetic make-up. I’m saying that the techniques and intelligence that created the very advanced civilization that we call Ancient Egypt were Caucasian in origin.
Look around you: Almost every significant invention impacting your life was created by a Caucasian, including the antecedent of the computer you’re typing on. You make is sound like it’s a coincidence that the exact location where advanced Ancient Egyptian civilization began was full of white people from Eurasia.
I’m not terribly interested in where the Egyptians SAID they were from. I’m interested in the very well established fact that the advanced civilization we call Ancient Egypt started at the Nile Delta, not the Horn of Africa, and not the closest point in the Nile Valley to the Horn of Africa. It started where Caucasian intelligence brought in or invented the advanced techniques to set it in motion.
You seem to be trying to disqualify the presence of all those Eurasian immigrants right where their civilization began. Accuse me of emotional bias to your heart’s content, but Northern Africa was no where near to being purely African. I will give those Caucasians credit where credit is clearly due, and I like to think I would even if I weren’t white.
HardLogic, you seem to be arguing against points that I have not made. I ask you to read what I have written again and find where I have said that the Egyptians were purely African in origin. I’m no Afro-centrist, nor am I a Euro-centrist. I don’t have an agenda other than presenting what I believe to be the truth.
At no time have I suggested that the Egyptians did not have a Caucasian origin. Nor have I said that there were not members of Egyptian society that were “white”. What I have said is that the majority of the Egyptians were a hybridized race. Their own art shows them as such and the descriptions of the Egyptians by their contemporaries describe them as appearing so. If, as you say, there was a black component to the average genetic makeup of ancient Egyptians, then don’t you feel that it’s incorrect to call them a White race? Most people would not call Mexicans a White people, despite the clear presence of persons of European descent in Mexican society. I was not trying to deny the Eurasian presence in ancient Egypt, as there clearly was.
Then maybe I’ve just argued with too many Afrocentrics and I jumped all over you for nothing. If so, I’m sorry.
No need for apology. There was no offense taken. I think that maybe I wasn’t really explicit enough about what points that I was trying to make, so I can understand if there was some confusion.
Sagat is wrong on almost every point of description. Northern Indians today are lighter skinned, southern darker skinned. Strabo in noting the difference and associating Egyptians with northern Indians was noting that Egyptians of his time were lighter skinned. Sagat keeps talking about Egyptian portraiture proving they were not light-skinned Caucasians. The population of Egypt was layered ethnically, with Caucasians always at the top as rulers, as the mummies from this class give irrefutable evidence. One must remember that Egyptian art was highly stylized, including the coloring. Rulers and members of the upper class were often painted with dark orange skin, never the Negro underclass and slaves, who were always painted, by contrast, with black skin, and who were despised by the Caucasian upper class as naturally inferior and ugly. In any event, the tan of a white person from Europe displays itself typically as coppertone in tint, that is, orangish. Egyptians stylized such a skin tone as dark orange. Caucasian skin baking in the African desert sun would take on such a color, which is exactly what the portraitures on tomb walls display, albeit stylized! And in ancient times all civilization, literature, inventions, science, mathematics, architecture, always came from the brains of the members of the upper class in every country, including Egypt. Thus the great achievements of ancient Egypt were by Caucasian males and only Caucasian males inasmuch as the upper class was Caucasian and only males invent! The Hyksos were a fair-skinned people who conquered Egypt from the sea. They were semitic cousins to Joseph. And it was the Hyksos pharoah who elevated his ‘cousin’ Joseph to rule Egypt and gave his family the fertile delta region as their own. The ruling class of Egypt was Negroid only once, when the Nubians conquered it. They were overthrown a century later and Caucasians resumed their characteristic role as the ruling class of Egypt, the class responsible for the astronomical, mathematical, architectural, and technological knowledge of that civilization, including adopting knowledge transported to Egypt through trade routes from the blue-eyed, blond and inventive Mesopotamians at that time, the forefathers of many Europeans today.
u guys r acutally discussing our race..Um egyptian from Cairo ,and I must admit that I saw some comments that made me so so angry ,like sagat’s
I can tell this guy knows nothing ..he just follow what Afrocentrics and Black extremists and African Americans say ,they r just a bunch of guys who are feeling bad about their race,cuz it’s the only race with no civilization and history,so they try to steal our history and our civilization by lies ,and they dont even know how to lie..u might be asking about my color, OK um white (or at least that what I think)by white I dont mean like Nordic blue eyes ,blond hair….. I mean black hair brown eyes white skin..that’s me ,and about the race of aceant Egyptians they r Mediterranean race ,as north Egyptians are white,
I swear to god that my neighbor is a redhaired man ,he’s egyptian ,My mother’s eyes are hazel
and the closest bookstore is owned by a beautiful redhaired woman..I admit it was hard for me to discover this cuz of her hijab(or headscarf)
but can be seen from her red eyebrows ,there are blonds and redhairs in egypt ,women are more than men ,hard to spot them in egypt because of thier hijab,(head scarf)which is an order in Islam for all women to wear it…
about ancient Egyptians mummies that are blond and red haired that’s true…about this guy who said it happens cuz of oxidation(it’s dumb to think like that . IF IT WAS OXADIATION :WHY ONE MUMMY HAIR TURNED YELLOW and some turned red????!!it then supposed to be one thing..
Egyptians are not black ,colored Egyptians are descendants of Arabs,it’s a fact that all arabs know..all know Today that Copts (which are descendants of the ancient egyptians .some of them even speak (ancient egyptians laguage)
are whiter than the Muslims in egypt which are descendants of arabs due to arab invasion happened at Caliph Omar period
…any one not believing Contact me
I.Samir
Cairo,Egypt
For as much as I love early Egyptian culture and study it as often as I can, this is amazing. Most of my research goes into my art work and with a new sketch I was working on today, I was looking for ancestral Egyptian hair styles and wondering if they were all dark haired until I came across your website.
So very intriguing! Thank you so much for posting.
According to the literary, visual, and genetic evidence the early kingdom Egyptians were much paler of hair, eyes, and skin than the middle and new kingdoms. In each of these kingdoms the ruling class was fairer than the lower classes, though progressively darker over time.
Combined, these trends indicate an advanced causcasian civilization gradually swamped by semitic and negroid elements. This is a pattern which continues to this day, the only difference being that nowdays it is occuring globally.
Multiculturalism has its’ novelty value; but threatens to drag us all down to the lowest common denominator. I recommend that some areas be set aside as a preserve where at least the seed of civilization can survive.
Fail in this and we regress, just as Egypt has.
Roy,
Well said, well said!
See my rendition of some of the Egyptian mummies. I based their coloring on various information gleaned from web sites devoted to Egyptian and other blonde and red haired mummies as well as the descriptions of one of the first people to examine and write about the mummies in 1889.
http://www.the-oh-zone.com
The mystery is the source of those blonde & red-haired people. There is evidence that they came from Atlantis.
http://atlantisquest.com/Hiero.html
Michael Tsarion also writes on this and you can search for his websites, as well as his you tube videos.
It seems that the Egyptian civilization appeared suddenly. There is nothing in the area to compare either before or since. All the great building projects seem to have moved North. There we have Baalbeck and others.
Caucasian rulers of Egypt do not suprise me, Caucasian rulers turn up in the darndest places. Even the Incans and Mayans (or Aztecs, i forget which) had stories of the same white skinned “god” that taught them science and agriculture. So it appears Whites have been globe trotting all over the planet for God knows how long, interfering, enslaving darker skinned races and satisfying their racial lust for power and the need to control.
How terrible, Terrence.
Teaching those poor people about science and agriculture.
I feel so sorry for you.
I know this isn’t scientific, but I like to look at Brunton’s portraits of Egyptian rulers.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gavin.egypt/bruntports.htm
Here’s a picture of a “white guy” standing next to picture of how ancient Egyptians depicted themselves. You are all a bunch of silly pathetic people. Look at the picture closely and then with a thinking and logical mind try to seriously convince yourself that the Egyptians were white. Please.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_X_d6JjJ00I4/Ry3suESTTVI/AAAAAAAAIgU/3qooSMMN4io/s400/king+Tut.jpg
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Ummm…. The Egyptians and the modern person look like they have the same skin cone, and he looks like a typical Middle Eastern Caucasian to me.
My gosh. You are living in a dream world that is certainly not firmly planted in reality. In your imagination the Egyptians may have been “typical Middle Eastern caucasians,” however, they were not. They very clearly depicted who they were on their own terms in their art. They very clearly distinguished themselves from the surrounding nations.
Look at the below picture with a logical mind. The ancient Egyptians looked no different than modern day Ethiopians. Looking at the sarcophagus of King Tut is like looking at the face of one in a million Ethiopian young men. Ethiopians have different facial features than West Africans, just as Armenians have different features than Brits and other Western Europeans. However, Ethiopians are still black Africans, just as Armenians are white Europeans. I have been to both Israel and Ethiopia and have seen the facial features, hair, skin tone, etc. of many Ethiopians. No different than the depiction of Egyptians in the artifacts we have uncovered.
http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/races.gif
As the above picture shows, from a phyenotypic standpoint, the Egyptians show themselves as the second darkest people in the region. They had no trouble showing themselves as dark. Just as Ethiopians today are a few shades lighter than a person from Zimbabwe, yet still black Africans. As Italians are darker than Brits, yet still white Europeans.
Here’s where I think you may have gone astray in your thinking. Persia conquered Egypt at around 500 BCE. After that Greece and then Rome over the following centuries. If you see a statue, figure, coffin, or painting with a guy that looks Persian, Greek, or Roman in your ethnocentric mind you automatically want to proclaim “the Egyptians were white” and jump up and down with glee. Not so my friend, they looked like Ethiopians as both Greek and Roman historians of antiquity have noted, but I’m sure you have invented a convenient way to dismiss these historical accounts. From a religious/historical standpoint even the neighboring Hebrews/Jews of the time as recorded in their Torah emphatically state that Egypt and Cush/Ethiopia are brothers.
As a “white guy” as you call yourself, I imagine your roots are probably the average “Heinz 57″ English, Irish, French, German, Dutch. Okay, that’s fine, but here’s a little history for you. The Egyptians civilized the Greeks, the Greeks civilized the Romans, and the Romans civilized Europe. Before the Latins gave you the light of culture your English, Irish, French, German, Dutch ancestors were painting themselves blue, howling at the moon, and eating bushes.
Actually, Mr. self proclaimed “white guy,” I’ll stretch my analysis a bit further. Instead of heavily crediting the African Egyptians for civilizing the West, let’s give some hefty credit to the Jews. As a “white guy” everything you hold dear has emerged from the Western Christian milieu. Even if you are not religious, your culture bows to a Jewish God, praises a Jewish man-savior, and has absorbed a completely Jewish religious text (i.e. the Bible) old and new testament. And yes, St. Luke was a Jew, either a Hellenist or a proselyte to Judaism from the Greek world. The Bible is a completely Jewish work, no goyim involved.
So, if it were not for the Jews giving you their Jewish God, Jewish Messiah, Jewish philosophy, and Jewish religious texts, which amounts to the concept of Monotheism, you would be worshiping at the temple of Saturn or Zeus with the cult prostitutes, or sacrificing your children so Thor and Odin would send the thunder and rain, or burning your virgin daughters alive so the crops would grow in some elaborate Druid ceremony. In essence, you would be utterly steeped in the darkness of your imaginary pantheon of gods, bowing and scraping at their every whim and superstitious caprice. You should be thanking the Jews mightily for giving you Western Civilization.
Furthermore, you like to throw around the term “Middle Eastern caucasian” or “caucasian” in general. Hasn’t modern genetics shown us that the term “caucasian” is pretty much a misnomer of the 19th century? One of those old and antiquated myths that only persists because it’s embedded in the culture yet in reality has little scientific meaning? The Caucasus Mountains… really? Is that were those industrious Egyptian guys came from???
Well to bring you into 21st century scientific reasoning, unless you are from Azerbaijan, or the geographical area, caucasian is virtually meaningless in terms of modern genetics and medicine. It’s nonsense, along with much of the other baggage of racial theories of the 19th and preceding centuries. It’s time to update your mental basket of goods.
In conclusion, Confucius said: “ignorance is the night of the mind, night without moon and stars.” At the present moment, it seems to me your mind is enveloped in the darkness of lack of sufficient knowledge. However, if you will allow logic prevail and prejudice cease, the light of wisdom will shine within… and it will be the best feeling you will have ever experienced. Enlightenment.
Daniel,
I’ve seen lots of Copts, and while they’re dark, they
don’t look like Black Africans to me. Much more like
Caucasians than Black Africans.
Arabs also don’t look Black to me, although clearly there
has been a lot of mixing at the boundaries, like in Yemen,
Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia. Once again, more like
Caucasians.
Yes, it is clear that East Africans look different than
West Africans. I bet a forensic scientist can discriminate
to a fairly high accuracy from a skull. The Ethiopian men
I see don’t look like all of the Egyptian pictures. You’ll
need to do better to convince me.
Nothing you said was convincing in the least, and I
couldn’t click through your angelfire link.
Animus,
I apologize for saying this, but you seem like a pretty dim bulb to me. First, trying to link modern Copts to ancient Egyptians is a ridiculous stretch. Over the past four millennia Egypt has been invaded more and changed hands more than any other nation on the African continent. Comparing a Copt to an ancient Egyptian is like saying the average Mexican living in Mexico City or Los Angeles is close to an ancient Olmec or Mayan. That dog just doesn’t hunt.
However, certain populations of neighboring indigenous Guatemalans who were not as much affected by miscegenation are a much closer link to the Olmecs or Mayans, as are some Ethiopians to ancient Egyptians. As a side note, what do you think of Anwar Sadat’s looks? Does he look “more like caucasian” to you? I’m sure in your imagination Mr. Sadat is a Nordic warrior.
I imagine your difficulty may be that you simply don’t know what Ethiopians look like. Specifically Amhara Ethiopians. Just Google image the term “amhara” to gain a greater perspective.
I’ll post some links to pics in a bit…
Anwar Sadat was half black (from Sudan). Really bad example.
I was always under the impression that the later Pharohs, including King Tut, were indeed black or mulatto. It’s the earlier Pharohs that show the caucasian racial characteristics. Most definately not Tut. Anyone who thinks he looks white must be blind.
It only makes sense that over many centuries, the blacks from nearby Nubia and Ethiopa would eventually make there way into Egypt.
If the links show up it’s pics of both Ethiopians and Eritreans. Somalis are another good example. As I said before I lived in Israel for a year and made many Ethiopian friends. The Ethiopians Jews are not that distinct from the average Amhara or Eritrean for that matter. You want a good idea what ancient Egyptians looked like? Don’t expect Goths, Visigoths, Gauls, Vandals, Druids or any kind a Nordic looking creature. Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalis, Nubians… that’s were you should go.
The Egyptians had no problem painting and sculpting themselves as they were… a nice deep chocolaty brown as most Africans are. If they were Nordics they would have painted themselves as Nordics with long tresses of blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin. But they didn’t. Only in your wildest illogical fantasies were the Egyptians Swedes.
You guys are complete tossers!
Daniel,
You should avoid name calling if you want to have credibility in your comments.
Did someone say that people sailed from Sweden and docked somewhere on the Nile and overran Egypt? No.
No one said the Egyptians were “Swedes”.
“Biblical Joseph was Egyptian Prime Minister Yuya. His mummy was recovered and he had light, blond hair.”
From first hand experience I can say that if you said the above statement to the average Israeli Jew they would laugh in your face. It is apparent that the blog author and most of the posters here buy into British Israelism, replacement theology, or a similar vein of antisemitism.
British Israelism and its various forms of antisemitic teaching stem from the obvious fact that I stated in a previous post. The Christian West is extremely self-conscious of the fact that they bow to everything Jewish. A Jewish God, a Jewish Messiah, a Jewish Bible, a Jewish worldview. Realizing their faith and belief systems are not their own, but have been handed to them by Jews causes deep inner pain. To assuage this pain, they invent a Swedish Abraham, a Dutch Joseph, a German King David, a British Jesus. They even invent a gentile Luke so they can pretend to have 2 books of the new testament. Finally they invent a horde of Nordic 10 lost tribes and say they are actually the real Jews. Pathetic.
Their pitiful minds will take it even further and invent fables that Nordics were the real Egyptians; the builders of the pyramids. Next, they will go deeper into their vain imaginings and say Nordics were Quetzalcoatl and bestowed the poor Mesoamericans with their advanced technology. And on and on it goes….
I saw someone on this board even mentioned the mythical Atlantis. Atlantis! Really? Are you kidding me? Clear proof you are all living in cartoons, comic books, fables, and self imposed delusion.
Complete tossers you are. The whole lot of you.
Essbro,
It’s called – hyperbole. It’s like saying “this bag weighs a ton.” The bag does to really weigh 2240 pounds, nor does anyone think it does. It’s an exaggeration used for the purpose of emphasis and to highlight absurdity. “Swede” is simple hyperbole my friend. Sorry you weren’t quick enough to catch that.
Daniel,
Not all the Egyptians were White. They did have dark workers, and there were mixed bloods. Consider what the Average White person would look like being out in the Egyptian Sun all day. He would get pretty dark wouldn’t he?
Have you ever read the desccriptions of those Mummies?
Rameses had SILKY Red Hair.
How many Nubians or Ethiopians have SILKY Hair?
Obviously you have not seen the Egyptian Wall Paintings depicting Blonde workers.
How about the statues with Blue Stones for Eyes?
They were depicting what they looked like.
You said that didn’t you?
Just had a question for you guys. Are the naturally blonde brown/black skinned Melanesians of the South Pacific caucasians also??? The ancient Egyptians paint themselves with dark brown skin and in some instances do have blonde hair, could they possibly be like modern day Melanesians?
Below are some pictures of Melanesians.
Just wanted to get your thoughts.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/070228064916-751387.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3417/3274589772_5feb2d0a4c.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/jackie4/BlondePacifican/24nov-08-w.jpg
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/AS001107.jpg?size=67&uid=954BF156-66AB-4363-89B8-42C32EE88348
Daniel,
It’s obvious at this point that you don’t understand how
to argue, and that you’re a liar as well. Perhaps you should
just try and stick with evidence, and avoid the ad hominem.
Are you capable of that, or is there some genetic issue that
prevents you from behaving in a civilized fashion?
The Copts are native to Egypt, have been for thousands
of years, and didn’t intermarry much with other groups.
Daniel is taking it to an extreme. As I said earlier in the comments, the Egyptians said their homeland was Punt, which is in the horn of Africa. Their language and their depiction of themselves show a relation to the sudroid people of east Africa. What needs to be stressed is that Egypt was a very long lived civilization. One of the mistakes that both Euro-centrists and Afro-centrists make is cherry picking information from select points in Egyptian history. Of course during the course of it’s history, there were other peoples that came into Egypt. Their laws changed with different dynasties and there was constant fluctuation. When Egyptians conquered other groups, it was common for them to integrate others into their society and even allow intermarriage. The presence of White people in Egypt shouldn’t be a surprise, but at the same time it shouldn’t be seen as an indication that all Egyptians were White. As I said earlier, the presence of White people in Mexico doesn’t make the Mexican people White, just as the presence of Whites in Egypt doesn’t make the Egyptians White.
There’s clear evidence that Egypt had some White pharaohs and there is also clear evidence that Egypt had Black pharaohs. Most Egyptians were sudroid, but I object to the assertion that sudroids should be considered to be the same as congoids as they are not, both physically and genetically. Look to my comment above for the quote from Sarah Tishkoff that shows that the sudroids are a unique genetic group, just as the Khoisan people represent a unique racial group. Trying to claim that sudroids are Black is a political move. They are only Black in a superficial sense, just as south Indians are sometimes called Black because of their dark skin. Africa is the most genetically diverse area on the earth. All Africans are not one monolithic race, just as Asians are not all one race.
Having little science backgrounds, I always marvel at the passion of these kind of debates, yet know I don’t have a well-rounded view; but, if I may, can I offer up a single post giving what I’ll call the curious but humble view on this topic, driven more by social curiousity than informed scientific analysis? (And please feel free to comment).
I see it like this:
Culture slowly changes into a hybrid—and then another culture.
Racial genetics are fixed, until they slowly mutate and change physically—into another ‘race.’
Language is fixed, until dialect and other infringements mark it as different, and it, too, mutates — into another ‘language.’
Added up, these make races, people and civilizations— the ingredients that you are all arguing about with such passion and rancor. And none of them are fixed, permanent and thus thoroughly traceable OR CURRENTLY REFERRABLE to a specific living and breathing cultural manifestation today.
‘Therefore, this Anthro-rube’s view is: man or ‘mankind’ is a nexus and all of us are only x degrees away from each extreme,
Furthermore, the geographical terrain — thus, these ‘Egypts,’ or ever-proverbial culture-cradles everyone claims and fights over, are entirely incidental to the gist of these debates: the land is occupied by different tribes during different eras and their sovereignty emanates from their different occupiers and eras — not from some essential substance in the soil.
To me, it comes down to: “Whose Egypt are you quarreling about?”
Animus,
You just said, “you don’t understand how to argue, and that you’re a liar as well… avoid the ad hominem.”
Wow. You must not understand what “ad hominem” means. You ad hominemly call me a liar, ad hominemly dismiss my assertions, and then tell me to make sure I avoid ad hominem.
Thank you for proving that you certainly are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. If any of the points I previously made aren’t clear to you, I suggest you ask a fair mined friend or acquaintance to help you sort through the logic.
Shalom!
OhZone,
“How many Nubians or Ethiopians have SILKY Hair?”
Plenty. Like I previously said, you’ve probably never been around many Ethiopians. Since you made this comment I can guess you most likely don’t know any. Plenty of Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalis, and Nubians have straight hair. I posted links to a bunch of pictures of Ethiopians and Eritreans with as you have called it “silky hair,” but the blog moderator seems to not want to let it post. Maybe he’ll let this one through:
http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/224786-551620-43.jpg
Daniel, you pic didn’t prove anything.
See the above links. Just under the photos. There is a full discussion on hair.
The thing you have ot considered in your arguments is the Bone Structure of the Mummies.
If you will look at my site, you will see my renderings of faces based on bone structure.
There is that one of Prednost Man…Considering where he was found, I thought he would be another white person, but the bones said otherwise.
If as you say the Entire History of Egypt was a history of the black people in the area we would all like to know exactly why it fell to ruin. Why did they never rebuild it?
Why are the Nubians still an agrarian society today?
Egypt should have been leading the world in high Tech.
OhZone,
You said: “Egypt should have been leading the world in high Tech.”
This statement doesn’t really make sense to me. I honestly don’t understand what point you are trying to make. The Chinese should have colonized the world as technologically advanced as they were. They didn’t. The empire was at war with barbarian Huns and Mongols. The technologically advanced Roman empire should have stood. It did not. It was destroyed by barbarian Vandals, Goths, and Visigoths (i.e. Germanic tribes people). These are only a few examples.
This is the way of empires. They rise and fall into extinction, obsolescence, or marginal obscurity. What are the once mighty Greeks adding to the world today? What is Italy contributing to its once mighty technologically superior empire? Were are the Aztecs, Incas, Olmecs, and Mayas? What are the indigenous Mesoamericans contributing to the world of their past greatness?
Why should the ancient Egyptians be any different? They rose, flourished, and for various reasons faltered into virtual non-existence.
OhZone,
I just checked out the links you advised from your site.
I am almost speechless. Your site more than substantiates the previous comments I made about people ascribing to the Nordic Egyptians myth possessing overactive imaginations and living in cartoons, comic books, fables, and self imposed delusion.
OhZone, you found pictures of bulbous skulls on the internet and then decided to draw some Swedish cartoon characters to fit your imaginations. Furthermore, you decided they were “hybrid” beings, a mixture of alien/angel and human DNA. You then make these “hybrid” super Swedes into the founders of every ancient technologically savvy civilization. Strange indeed.
This is nothing more than Helena Blavatsky’s Theosophical imaginary dreamland. It is not science. It is not anthropology. It is not archeology. It is not genetics. It is not history. I didn’t read everything, but I’m sure you probably threw in some wild theories involving Atlantis, Lemuria, Hyperborea, etc.
I’m not quite sure how to adequately respond. I’ve said it all in previous posts. Your ideas are day dreams and vanity, not reality.
Please don’t take this as a personal attack. I often use sarcasm and hyperbole in my responses, but I mean no personal ill will. However, I am attacking your ideas. They are seriously flawed. They are lacking the firm foundation of reality, the clear ping of truth, and basic logic. Your ideas are absurd.
Remember the principle of Occam’s Razor: when making observations, one should make as few assumptions as possible and the most simple and coherent explanation is usually the closest to the truth. To the contrary, your theories/ideas and those of this site are filled with wildly absurd assumptions and breaches of reason.
“Just had a question for you guys. Are the naturally blonde brown/black skinned Melanesians of the South Pacific caucasians also??? The ancient Egyptians paint themselves with dark brown skin and in some instances do have blonde hair, could they possibly be like modern day Melanesians?
Below are some pictures of Melanesians.
Just wanted to get your thoughts.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/070228064916-751387.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3417/3274589772_5feb2d0a4c.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/jackie4/BlondePacifican/24nov-08-w.jpg
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/AS001107.jpg?size=67&uid=954BF156-66AB-4363-89B8-42C32EE88348”
Interesting point Daniel, I might add that red hair is quite common in places like Yemen and Lebanon. I have always thought the rise of different hair colors in Europeans may have risen before Europeans settled Europe, or became white. Just a thought. I might add that while I believe in most human biodiversity ideas, that I’am not against the idea that the Egyptians had african roots. I feel that the Egyptians were likely not white, but maybe had some similarities with pre-Indo-European people of Europe. While current differences between the natural intelligence of Blacks versus other races would suggest the absolute stupidity into thinking that Egyptians were some how Black. You have to take in consideration that the Egyptians represented only one group of people on the African continent that lived thousands of years ago. Also differences in intelligence are not directly related to skin color. It is just that temperate climates are more adpative for high intelligence. However, certain tropical enviroments could produce the same results in a people gaining adquate intelligence for producing pretty advance civlizations. Look at the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas of the Americas. Look at the pre-Indo-European peoples of India. It is an incorrect idea in my opinion, that the way a people look is an instant clue to a group’s overall intelligence. Orientals were not always thought to be smart by western standards. It has been with modern economic success and psychometrics that has deemed them to posess certain cognitive abilities that allow them to surpass whites in general intelligence rankings. Egyptians were possibly a unique group of African people who existed thousands of years ago. They likely have some relation to other african people on the continent. However, enviromental circumstances must have been unique enough to constrast with the other people on the continent that they developed high enough intelligence independent of European and Asian gene flow. I’am a true believer in human biodiversity, but I consider myself an evolutionary realist than your standard pro-white conservative. I will not accuse anybody of white supremacy fallacy on this site, since most commentators on this site are not racial collectivists. But should be more open to the idea that people who are physically different in appearance to Europeans and Asians, could have developed advance civlizations on their own. Evolution is a chaotic and dynamic force, which follow the rules of survival and not aesthetic. Whatever gave the non-white dark skined Egyptians an enviromental impetus to develop intelligence worthy of civlization likely disappeared thousands of years ago. It also did not appear in great occurence beyond the Nile. My opinion is likely not to be shared by either Guywhite or Daniel. Guywhite is a pro-white anti-nazi conservative, and Daniel is possibly your standard racial egalitarian, which both are not bad things to be. Daniel and Guywhite are not stupid in their opinions, and so are the rest of the commentators on this site. So please have civil replies to this comment. I do not think any of you are stupid or evil, just maybe wrong on certain things.
In short, I agree with Daniel, the Egyptians were likely related to other Africans, than some how being white. I believe this to be fact. Even in consideration of the likely low intelligence of African natives, since the Nile may have produced an enviroment different from the rest of Africa. This enviroment being very condusive to high intelligence that is independent of temperate climate and gene flow from Asians and Europeans. Egyptians were just smart Africans.
Daniel,
I respect your perspective–it’s interesting–but you seem to have seized on this one thread and indicted the entire blog based on this one topic and a few statements made by a few posters.
And wheather you were employing hyperbole or not, you were becoming so emphatic about someone saying the Egyptians were Swedes, I had to reread it to see if someone had actually said it.
All blogs have stuff we don’t agree with and that’s why we post counter arguements and yours were great, even as a couple were condescending. Being one man’s opinion, by there very nature, these sites invite counter arguements.
Essbro,
Your right. I haven’t read everything on this site, but much of the material I have read seemed quite bizarre to me. I felt I had to comment.
To clarify my position I am neither an Afrocentric nor Eurocentric thinker. I recognize that the Egyptians were a racially mixed nation, but I certainly think they were primarily “black” Africans. Specifically, when I say “black” I do not mean negroid per se. Although there is obviously negroid mixture, many scholars see the ancient Egyptians as a separate African race akin to australoids. Much like the Elamites, the first Sumerians, and some Dravidian sub-groups. This analogous Egyptian australoid race would fall under the category of “black” Africans, just as negroid does. I realize the terms negroid, australoid, mongoloid, etc are outdated and problematic, but I’m employing them for the sake of brevity, so please don’t seize on the terms.
So when we see paintings of blonde Egyptians, Occam’s Razor of simplicity is helpful and efficient. Here the Egyptians paint themselves as dark brown people usually with black hair but at times with blonde hair. Is there any other simple comparison we can make? Yes! Australoid Melanesians of the South Pacific. Many Melanesians have extreme blonde hair, and their dark brown skin and other physical characteristics remain unchanged whether the hair is black, brown, or blonde.
This is a much simpler comparison than making the giant leap/assumption to assert something such as: the Egyptians over exaggerated the darkness of their skin, yet they were completely accurate with their blonde hair depictions. This undoubtedly means they were not akin to “black” australoids, but actually “white” caucasoids as seen by them painting themselves with blonde hair.
As I stated previously: that dog just doesn’t hunt. Although much more plausible then saying the Egyptians were really Nordics from Atlantis or alien/human hybrids, it’s still not as simple as taking Egyptian paintings at face value. They painted some of their people with dark brown skin and blonde hair, because that’s exactly how some of them looked! Just as we can observe this same phenotypic phenomenon with modern Melanesians. Simple. Clean. Grounded. Logical.
Daniel, Yes, Egypt should have led the world in high Tech. If you read their history, you will see that they fell to ruin when the Hyksos Pharaohs left. As the Melanin rose the empire fell. Same for Greece, which was once peopled by the fair-haired, as was Italy.
As to the Incas, Maya and Aztecs, I think the Spanish nearly wiped them out.
Have you considered the probability that those blonde-haired, dark skinned people are simply carrying the recessive gene for this trait which they acquired from mixing with the fair-haired race?
Here is someone else who has depicted the Pharaohs with European features.
http://www.guardians.net/egypt/
Here is a site that discusses the Guanches and the Egyptian Connection.
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiescanaryislands.html
And do read the other pages on this site.
As to my rendition of the Coneheads; it was not imagination that caused me to color them fair. The people of South America described their Gods as tall, Blue-Eyed and Blonde or Red Haired. There are Blonde and Red-Haired Mummies found all over the world. Doesn’t this spark your curiosity at all?
All cultures tell of fair haired “Sky Gods” that came and taught them many things.
Consider that if this is so Bizzare to you that it is simply because you have never heard of it before.
You came to this site Why? Because the info was strange to you and you were curious maybe?
You have no proof to counter any of our “Bizzare” statements.
Perhaps Atlantis etc will not seem such a wild theory when you learn more of Earth’s history and its physical dynamics, Cosmic cataclysms etc.
I assume you are under 30 years of age and only schooled in traditional academics.
Soon you will learn that Truth is frequently stranger than Fiction.
All Truth passes thru 3 stages; first it is ridiculed, then it is vigorously denied, finally it is accepted as self evident.
Regards,
O Z
OhZone,
You said: “it was not imagination that caused me to color them fair. The people of South America described their Gods as tall, Blue-Eyed and Blonde or Red Haired… Soon you will learn that Truth is frequently stranger than Fiction.”
Haha! My friend, you have blatantly disregarded one very simple fact. The Mesoamericans (i.e. Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Olmecs, etc) painted and sculpted what they felt their gods looked like themselves. They have left numerous artful depictions of their personal thoughts of their gods.
Mesoamerican depictions look nothing like the Swedish cartoons you have drawn! Of course this very simple logic has eluded you because you have a personal agenda and flawed preconceptions to prove.
So should we, as logical rational people accept ancient Mesoamerican depictions of their gods, or your depictions as truth or fiction?
Re: Daniel’s 8:57 a.m. post:
I am not qualified to opine much on this thread or topic, but I felt Daniel made one very important and often overlooked point about debates such as these:
Many of you engage in furious debates over terms and assessments you widely share — but, upon further elaboration, YOU HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERING DEFINITIONS OF: “black,” “negroid,” “wooly”; often, you even pause and say as much, such as when Daniel notes that many researchers of different eras considered Egyptians dark but different than other Africans, etc. — but at that point you are often so enflamed and in the heat of battle that these very crucial distinctions and qualifications are overlooked and you simply continue your verbally volleying back and forth. It seems to me you often are arguing over fluid and transitional terms and definitions.
OhZone,
I just thought of an easy analogy to further illustrate my point.
Suppose I was commissioned to create a portrait of Norse gods. Let’s say, Thor god of thunder, and Odin god of war. Now suppose I drew Thor as an African Zulu warrior with iron hammer in hand, and Odin as a Native American chief holding bow and arrow. Next I claim these are the most accurate depictions of the Norse gods.
Would I not be laughed at? Would my ideas not seem most absurd? Would I not be accused of being out of touch with reality?
Yet this is exactly what you and many others on this site do. Your ideas are the equivalent of making Zulu and Native American Thors and Odins. It’s laughable.
The DNA says that ancient Egyptians weren’t subsaharan africans. North Africans are originally from the middle east many thousands of years ago. They re-entered Africa during the last ice ages. Since the gene for brown, blonde and redhair didn’t even exist when North Africa was settled the most logical conclusion is NOT that Egyptians were non-white caucasians but that they were PRE white caucasians from the middle east. That is to say they were swarthy, olive, etc. with dark hair and eyes. The brown, blond & red hair was introduced at a later time.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)62417-3
Now this part is speculation. There was most likely an influx of whites who either became the royal families or married into them. This would fit the historical patterns around the world in which 1) the upper classes tend to be lighter than the general population and 2) royal families marry other royals and not the general population. What people forget is that ancient Egypt was part of a larger mediterranean culture. And there is genetic evidence to support this. All the countries bordering the Mediterranean share some common genetics along their coastlines.
Egyptian culture is rooted in Sumerian culture. So if you’re looking for the roots of Egyptian civilization you still end up in the middle east. In fact, the first pyramids were actually the ziggarats of Sumeria. Egyptian religion and technology both came from Sumeria. The interesting thing about this is that most civilizations start out primitive and develop. But in the case of the Egyptian pyramids the FIRST pyramids are the most advanced. There are only a few of them that are worth a shit. Not that Egypt wasn’t a great civilization for thousands of years. But some of Egypt’s credit belongs to Sumeria.
PS- I checked out OZ’s stuff and I have to say that you’re pretty much skating out there on the edge, my friend.
Ohzone, do you read David Icke. Seriously Ohzone, he is always talking about a race of blond & blue eyed supermen who collabrate and compete with our obstensible reptoid overlords. I would find it interesting that you were a David Icke reader Ohzone. O’yeah, I know the concept of nordic supermen from space were not concieved by David Icke, but have been part of abduction lore since alien abductions were first being reported in the fifties, if you consider Villa Boas case as the first abduction case, than Barney and Betty Hill. No black man married to a white woman is going to acknowledge to seeing blond blue eyed superman from space.
Ohzone, do you read David Icke. Seriously Ohzone, he is always talking about a race of blond blue eyed supermen who collabrate and compete with our obstensible reptoid overlords. I would find it interesting that you were a David Icke reader Ohzone. O’yeah, I know the concept of nordic supermen from space was not first concieved by David Icke, but has been part of alien abduction lore since alien abductions were first being reported in the fifties, thats if you consider the Villa Boas case as the first abduction case, than the Barney and Betty Hill incident. No black man married to a white woman is going to acknowledge to seeing blond blue eyed supermen from space.
Corrected Version.
Fred,
What do you mean I’m skating far out there?
I do a lot of thinking outside the box. More folks should do that.
Do those conehead skulls cause difficulties for you?
They are found all over the world.
If you look at the Egyptian sculptures of Akhenaton and his daughters, as well as Nefertiti, you will see that they too had enormous bulbous skulls.
James Watson,
I don’t care much for David Icke. He has totally misinterpreted all reference to snakes/serpents/reptiles.
Daniel, have you even read any of the info on this site?
Your arguments seem to be mostly your opinions. You have given no solid argument against any of its claims.
If you are not serious about refuting the claims that Early Egyptians were indeed white, other than your opinion ridiculing them I will no longer reply to you.
I offer some last bits of info for you and then its bye, bye.
If have some info and links that I wanted to post, but this site will not accept it.
If you are really interested in learning about those South
American Gods you must Search Viracocha, Quetzelcoatl and Kukulkan. You will find that folk lore tells that they were tall and fair.
For lots and lots of pics of Egyptian art
http://www.white-history.com
Sagat,
I wanted to thank and commend you for your Apr. 4, 2009, 9:57 p.m. post on this topic.
I just read it now and found it to be both informative, able to convey complex info in a way comprehendable to the layman, and reasonable in its suggestions that we often both over-and-under-ascribe notions about people and races based on geography and physical characteristics.
IMHO, good stuff!
Daniel,
Your rants are laughable to the educated. You offer an image and claim they were “very clearly depicted” but that image is not an authentic one, it is a sketch from Minutoli in 1820 and an Afrocentric has made it much darker than the original sketch.
The true image is located in the tomb of Seti I:
http://www.geocities.com/enbp/images/races1.jpg
Note the Egyptian on the far right. His phenotype and skin do not match the negroid at all. The Egyptian matches closer (beards, phenotype, hair) with the Libyans. The Egyptians are a Mediterranean White race. Yet, you Afrocentrists use this as evidence that Egyptians were identical to negroids. Laughable indeed.
Do tell us about King Tut. Why was he classified as a Caucasian? Ramses II as a white skinned person? The supposed mummy of Nefertiti as Indo-European?
“The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. …Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component.”(The Levant versus the Horn of Africa 2004)
Can you find one single accredited Egyptologist that claims Egypt was negroid? Zahi Hawass – head of Egyptian Antiquities – says they were not. DNA says they were not. Anthropologists say they were not. The only ones that seem to think they were, are Afrocentric loons themselves.
“This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south. .”(“Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” Robins G, Shute CCD)
You claim that they are clearly depicted
so just how do you explain away 13th dynasty Khnumnakht?Mind you, this is long before Persia, Assyria, Rome, etc conquered Egypt.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3787354209_57416aa5f5.jpg
“their Torah emphatically state that Egypt and Cush/Ethiopia are brothers.”
They were at one point. Regions such as Ethiopia and Somalia etc. are genetically distinct from unmixed negroids of southern and western Africa and are technically not considered sub-Saharan African negroids. Thats because Whites once inhabited those regions
“Haplogroups M1 and (preHV)1 occurred at almost equal frequencies among Cushitic- and Semitic-speaking populations of Ethiopia. Both haplogroups are also common in western Asian Semitic-speaking populations and have occasionally been found in North and northwestern African Berbers (Rando et al. 1998; Richards et al.2000, 2003; Plaza et al. 2003), which suggests a correlation with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages.” (Forster 2004).
“Though present-day Ethiopia is a land of great ethnic diversity, the majority of Ethiopians speak different Semitic, Cushitic, and Omotic languages that belong to the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum. Maternal lineages of Semitic- (Amharic, Tigrinya, and Gurage) and Cushitic- (Oromo and Afar) speaking populations studied here reveal that their mtDNA pool is a nearly equal composite of sub-Saharan and western Eurasian lineages. This finding, consistent with classic genetic-marker studies (Cavalli-Sforza 1997) and previous mtDNA results, is also in agreement with a similarly high proportion of western Asian Y chromosomes in Ethiopians (Passarino et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2002), which supports the view (Richards et al. 2003) that the observed admixture between sub-Saharan African and, most probably, western Asian ancestors of the Ethiopian populations applies to their gene pool in general. (Am. J. Hum. Genet., 75:000, 2004)
“The apportionment of individuals (the average per-individual proportion of ancestry) from each of the eight populations into the four structure-defined clusters broadly corresponds to four geographical areas: Western Eurasia, Sub-Saharan Africa, China and New Guinea. Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans….” (J.F. Wilson et al. Nature Genetics 29:265-269, 2001)
“In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate.” (Cavalli-Sforza et al., HGHG, page 174)
“In northern and northeastern parts of Africa geographically connected to Asia, substantial continuity with Near Eastern genetic regions is observed.” (DNA Tribes Digest February 28, 2009)
Obviously study after study shows Caucasian DNA flowing thru the veins of Ethiopians. Now, if there is this much Caucasian DNA in Ethiopia, doesnt it make sense there would be much much more in ancient Egypt? After all Ethiopia is further than Egypt from the Levant! HENCE:
“Local comparisons between Upper Egyptians were carried out with other ethnic groups in Egypt, based on frequency and molecular data. No differences were observed in comparison with a general **Caucasian** population from Cairo in any of the nine loci compared or with Egyptian Christians from Cairo…Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. **The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others.** (Genetic variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians (Omran et al 2008)
“I imagine your difficulty may be that you simply don’t know what Ethiopians look like. Specifically Amhara Ethiopians. Just Google image the term “amhara” to gain a greater perspective. ”
To write these people off as pure negroes is laughable to the educated.
“The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. … The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position.” (De Stefano et al., Ann Hum Biology 2002)
“Nine distinct subclades, including three newly defined ones, were found to characterize entirely the variation of Ethiopian and Yemeni L3 lineages. Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages and therefore cluster together in a multidimensional scaling plot between Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African populations… Lineages that belong to haplogroup N that cover virtually all mtDNA sequences in western Eurasia (Richards et al. 2000) show substantial frequencies both in the Yemeni (44%) and Ethiopian (31%) mtDNA pools. In this respect, Ethiopians differ explicitly from most other sub-Saharan African populations studied thus far. Within Ethiopia, the frequency of N lineages is significantly higher (P<.05) in samples that originate from its northern territory (48%), which was the center of the Aksum kingdom, than among other Ethiopians, mostly originating from the south-central part of the country (27%). At the same time, there was no significant difference in the proportions of haplogroup N between the Semitic and Cushitic linguistic groups in our sample—for example, between Amharas and Oromos… Their elevated frequency and uniform presence among major language groups in Ethiopia (table 1) suggests that these derived lineages may represent a relatively old introgression of lineages to the Ethiopian mtDNA pool from the Near East…Haplogroup (preHV)1 is by far the most frequent (10.4%) subclade in the Ethiopian N cluster (fig. 2B). The majority of the Ethiopian (preHV)1 lineages match or derive from founder haplotypes common to Near Eastern, southern Caucasian, and North African populations (Krings et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003b)… Their elevated frequency and uniform presence among major language groups in Ethiopia (table 1) suggests that these derived lineages may represent a relatively old introgression of lineages to the Ethiopian mtDNA pool from the Near East… Three of the five haplogroup J lineages in Ethiopians share a distinct HVS-I motif, 16069-16126-16193-16300-16309 (J1c), that is characteristic of J sequences in populations from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and North Africa (Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; Richards et al. 2000; Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003)… All Ethiopian and Yemeni haplogroup T sequences clustered with either T1 or T2 subclades, consistent with the classification of all existing European T coding-region sequences (Ingman et al. 2000; McMahon et al. 2000; Finnilä et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Coble et al. 2004)… All eight Ethiopian U6 samples descend from the major U6a1 founder (fig. 2B), which is spread from the Near East to northwestern Africa at appreciable frequencies (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003). Their absence in Yemen suggests that these U6 lineages have likely penetrated to Ethiopia from the north rather than by the sea route from Arabia. (“Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears” Toomas Kivisild et al., 2004)
[NOTE: Cluster U6 is a sister cluster to several major and minor clusters in Europe and the NearEast, including the most ancient cluster in the region,U5, which is specific to Europe and dates to 50,000years ago (Richards et al. 1998)… “U5 and U6 diverged from a common ancestor (the Cambridge reference sequence [CRS]) in the Near East (where traces remain of U6; Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; authors’ unpublished data) » 50,000 years ago and spread along the north and south coasts, respectively, of the Mediterranean, as far as Iberia to the north and Cyrenaı¨ca to the south, » 45,000–50,000 years ago]
"So, if it were not for the Jews…" You sure are pent up with hatred…. it must be boiling to the point of explosion to have to vent this nonsense all over this thread.
The world would be a much better place, if not for the antichrist racist non semitic Edomite devils called "Jews". Tell me, "Jew" what have "Jews" ever done to contribute to advancement in technology? The plane, computer, car, phone… those are all White inventions that you take for granted. Western Civilisation… come again "Jew"? lol
You Afrocentrists like to include Melanesians into your "argument". You shouldn’t, Melanesians and Australoids aren’t related to negroids, they are the people on the planet least related to each other. Also, no Melanesians were ever in Nubia or Egypt.
You're not the bright bulb you believe yourself to be, but rather boastful and empty in character.
“Yet this is exactly what you and many others on this site do. Your ideas are the equivalent of making Zulu and Native American Thors and Odins. ”
Keep grasping for those bananas. This is a strawman. No one in here mentioned anything about “Thors and Odins” except for you. The Egyptians were Mediteranean Caucasians, but did have a hint of Nordic element.
Is she a negroid, “Daniel”? Or are you engaged in self deception?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3787354209_57416aa5f5.jpg
kellscross writes, “The world would be a much better place, if not for the antichrist racist non semitic Edomite devils called “Jews”. Tell me, “Jew” what have “Jews” ever done to contribute to advancement in technology?”
You wrote two very long comments taking Daniel to task. And I agreed with pretty much all of it except that. If you have a legitimate criticism then make it. Otherwise, cut the crap. But that’s just my opinion. It’s up the blog owner to lay down the law.
Really Fred.
“Daniel” hurled the tactless lies. Oh sure, I could have gone into much greater detail, however I have no interest to bring this up in a thread dealing with Egyptian subject matter so I merely spit it back in his face. Maybe you didn’t read the allegations that “Daniel” made…
“So, if it were not for the Jews giving you…”
This is Jewish racism point blank and should be dealt with firmly; it has no business in an Egyptian thread.
Kellscross (i.e. Mr. Antisemite),
Nice posts. Calling me an “afrocentrist” or implying that I said the Egyptians were “sub-saharan africans” shows me you have no critical thinking, reading, or advanced reasoning skills whatsoever. I said none of these. Please re-read (or don’t bother) my posts and try desperately to keep a logical framework in mind.
And you “taking me to task?” That’s funny.
Nu? What your post shows me is that you have mastered the highly technical and sought after ability of logging onto Wikipedia and your favorite websites and cutting and pasting material. Nice.
So, the Egyptians were “non-white caucasians?” Really? Perhaps a better view is the Egyptians were “non-negroid blacks,” sort of how the natives of Australia are viewed as non-negroid blacks? Or, as you have been ardently trying to show in your posts, like the “non-negroid” black Ethiopians and Somalis. Or should we follow your lead and call them the “non-white Ethiopian and Somali caucasians?” But i’ll spare you the Wikipedia cutting and pasting. A prized skill you seem to have mastered so beautifully. Good for you though.
Wait a second… by “non-white caucasians” are you really trying to say you believe the Egyptians were “black caucasians?” That Ethiopians and Somalis are “black caucasians?” Okay, now it is all clear! I will concede the point and since modern genetics has proven that our current views on race and classification are unscientific and irrelevant, I will agree with you and say: the Ancient Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Somalis area all BLACK CAUCASIANS!!! Or better yet, really, really, brown caucasians like the “non-white” really, really brown caucasian Dravidians of India.
The Egyptians were black caucasians who tell us in their own writings their civilization originates from the land of “Punt.” The scholarly consensus locates “Punt” in the geographical region of the horn of Africa: Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or southern Sudan. Wow, the exact same places were the rest of the black caucasians of Africa hail from. Hahahahaha!
From all your postings, what is strikingly clear to me is your agenda. Your comments are very telling: “antichrist racist non semitic Edomite devils called “Jews.” Your agenda is to make people groups and ethnicities into something they are not. Into a twisted figment of your dim imagination, in one way or another.
The “Jews” are not really Jews. In your view they are evil illegitimate Edomite imposters. I’m sure you have some very wild and riveting fairy tales of who you think the “real Jews” are. Also, the Egyptians must be transformed according to your agenda. Real Egyptians in your imagination are simply run-of-the-mill Mediterranean white folks in togas, with a dash of Nordic superiority for good measure. Lame.
In closing, my previous comments still stand. And i’m still very… no extremely proud of the Jewish contribution to the Western world and the world at large. You should be thankful Kellscross. You get to be a modern antisemite with running water and ice cubes in your glass, spouting your antisemitism. Instead of a Druid living in a hut and bloodletting so the crops will grow. And we managed to transform so many civilizations without violence, warring, oppression, enslavement, jailing and mass murder. Our tools were brains, ideas, pen and ink, and in every generation the hateful rose against us yet we persisted. You should be thankful indeed Mr. Antisemite for Judaisms’ contribution.
Kellscross,
You said: “This is Jewish racism point blank and should be dealt with firmly; it has no business in an Egyptian thread.”
Once again you show your lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension. It’s probably close to zero.
The third bullet point of the author’s original blog post reads: “Biblical Joseph was Egyptian Prime Minister Yuya. His mummy was recovered and he had light, blond hair. Below is a picture of his mummy”
I first commented on the ridiculousness of the author’s above statement. So YES Jews, Judaism, and things you perceive as “Jewish racism” do have business on an Egyptian thread. Why? Because as you have failed to ascertain THE SUBJECT WAS ORIGINALLY PART OF SAID EGYPTIAN THREAD!
You make this too easy my antisemitic friend.
A quick run through the blogosphere makes it clear that Kellscross has a manical obsession with Jewishness and an equally obsessive urge to deny any african lineage to her Egyptian background.
sorry, meant to say ‘Maniacal’ — and that would be with a capital ‘M’!
Furthermore, the recent above exchanges between Daniel and Kellcross reconfirm the observations I made in my oct. 26, 2:05 a.m. comment, imho:
“Many of you engage in furious debates over terms and assessments you widely share — but, upon further elaboration, YOU HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERING DEFINITIONS OF: “black,” “negroid,” “wooly”, “black caucasian”, etc.; often, you even pause and say as much, such as when Daniel notes that many researchers of different eras considered Egyptians dark but different than other Africans, etc. — but at that point you are often so enflamed and in the heat of battle that these very crucial distinctions and qualifications are overlooked and you simply continue your verbally volleying back and forth. It seems to me you often are arguing over fluid and transitional terms and definitions.”
Daniel, (i.e. Deceitful Afrocentric Talmudic Liar)
If that is supposed to be a didactic post in response to me, all that is left to say is that congruency is not your forte. Why I must have struck a scared insecure frustrated little nerve!
You had nothing to say when you were exposed using a sketch by Minutoli in 1820. You were utterly speechless on the scientific studies that were presented, instead you laughingly chock it off as “Wikipedia” it’s quite obvious that you’ve never referred to a scientific journal thus your clueless slackjawed response is as typical as your ignorant insults and rants. This is why you couldn’t refute it. I know, the truth hurts you very much Daniel, so you will only continue to hit back without any substance or value. Typical and as to be expected.
You drew a complete blank on the 13th dynasty coffin of Khnumnakht. What an inconvenient piece of art for Afrocentric liars such as yourself. You had nothing to say about the DNA concerning the Amhara Ethiopians descended from Arabian conquerors, whom you brought up; or that Ethiopians in general are roughly half Caucasian. Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalis, Nubians, Melanesians are NOT Egyptians. Oh look, another study you will no doubt either ignore or whine about… and of course never demonstrate any intellect whatsoever to refute it but run and hide from it:
“The dental analysis is concerned with morphological variation in the permanent dentition (ages 6 to adult). Each specimen was inspected for usable teeth, and up to 36 discrete dental and osseous oral traits. Additional anatomical and cultural dental features (313 possible observations per individual) were documented for potential future study. The traits are included in the Arizona State University (ASU) dental anthropology system. Procedures used in the ASU system are based on well-established criteria for scoring intra-trait variation. The dental traits in each individual were recorded, using 23 reference casts. The reason for selecting these particular traits concerns their individual and collective expression in Africa, as well as in Asia, Europe, and the Americas, to facilitate a comparison of suites of features within and among samples and regions. Once the data are recorded, the normal procedure is to determine frequencies of trait occurrence and apply one of several multivariate distance statistics (e.g., Mean Measure of Divergence) to the discrete frequency data for inter sample comparative purposes. Because this report is preliminary, statistical analyses have not yet been undertaken. However, based on a qualitative inspection of the dentitions, it appears that: 1) dental phenetic homogeneity was prevalent among the Hierakonpolis inhabitants; and 2) they exhibit dental traits that ally them with other post-Pleistocene populations in greater North Africa. Prior work shows North Africans have morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. This dental pattern was shown to be ubiquitous among samples, regardless of distance—from the Canary Islands to Egypt and Nubia—or time—from 8,000 year-old Capsians to recent Berbers in western North Africa. This pattern, termed the “North African Dental Trait Complex,” includes high frequencies of several traits such as an interruption groove on UI2, M3 agenesis, and rocker jaw, plus a low occurrence of LM2 Y-5 groove pattern. All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree, but are uncommon in sub-Saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent… At present, my qualitative inspection of the 14 crania appears to support the preliminary dental findings: 1) Hierakonpolis inhabitants appear to be uniform in cranial size and form, and 2) they show some resemblance to other post-Pleistocene populations of North Africa, as well as Europe and West Asia. They appear distinct from post-Pleistocene sub-Saharan Africans.” ( “Preliminary Report on Analyses of the Hierakonpolis Human Remains” Dr. Joel D. Irish, Dept. of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks; Nekhen News volume 12 Page 9& 10 2000)
The Jewish hate you espouse has nothing to do with the Biblical Joseph. What’s patently obvious is your anti White hatred of western nations and your Jew superiority complex and the lusty desire to jerk off to it in every post of yours. The Jew’s attitude is to spew it but never take it……Ice Cubes? You can thank Scottish John Gorrie for that invention, Esau, how fitting the devil himself would lie about the inventiveness, intelligence and technological abilities of others and claim them as his own… it sounds familiar and smacks of racist Afrocentrism/Jewish supremacism. Shove your Jewish lies, usury, murder and phony “contributions” deceitful Esau.
“Nikcrit”, Your “quick run through” exposes you as unread and incompetent. It’s obvious you have issues considering you seem to think its ok for Jews to bash other civilizations and cultures without being confronted for it. Maybe where you come from this is ok.
Now what are you trying to say here or is this more babble that must be deciphered? I don’t have an “Egyptian background” so just how the hell am I “denying” it? Or are you TRYING to say that the Egyptians have an “African” background? Sure, they do geographically, but racially the DNA indicates they were not negroids.
Kellscross,
The truth is self evident.
You said: “it is a sketch from Minutoli in 1820 and an Afrocentric has made it much darker than the original sketch.”
You make refuting your silliness way too easy. Anyone with a search engine can look at images of the original depictions and many other paintings and glyphs. They are consistent and far from what you try to pass off as “afrocentric.”
A question for your small mind. Does paint tend to darken or lighten over thousands of years? Does it fade, or become more rich and vibrant with color over millennia? Which is it?
Well we already know with the naked eye Egyptians normally painted themselves a pretty dark shade of brown, even as we are viewing their art thousands of years later. So with the wildest stretch of logic let’s pretend the images as we see them are pristine and the colors have not faded at all over time. Even with that stretch the images are considerably dark/brown. Or, as you like to quip “non-white.”
Here is another good one for you: why is it that no one ever attempts to dispute whether the ancient Greeks were “black” or “white?” Why is it that no one ever attempts to dispute whether the ancient Romans were “black” or “white?” Why is it that no one attempts to dispute whether the ancient Chinese were “black” or “white?” Yet the controversy of the Egyptians runs on like no other ancient civilization… why?
Shouldn’t the answer be simple? The answer is actually pretty clear. Euroscentrist also know exactly why the controversy persists. Answer that simple question for yourself, deep within, with the savor of intellectual honesty, and enlightenment will rapidly flood your soul.
So, Kellscross, you have it chap: the Egyptians were black caucasians, originally from Punt, the horn of Africa the sacred land of black caucasians. The Ethiopians are black caucasians. The Eritreans are black caucasians. The Somalis are black caucasians… LOL… yeah right?
Kellscross:
“Jews bashing other civilizations???”
The only bashing I’ve seen involving your posts is you bashing jews!!! (I suggest you go revisit some of your Stormfront posts).
Eli, Paint gets darker over time, unless it is exposed to the Sun. Most of their Paintings have never been exposed to the Sun.
It has already been said that it is the men who are depicted with brown skin….they were Sun-Browned, don’t you think. The women are painted with fair skin, aren’t they?
The info on the dentition was excellent.
What is your problem with it?
It seems that the discussion has turned to Egyptians in general.
Current Brown Egyptians are mostly Arab.
The Ancient Egyptian Ruling Classes were Blonde & Red-Haired, as evidenced by their Mummies.
They had black Slaves.
They did intermix with them, and over time they all became darker.
And the more they mixed the faster the Empire crumbled.
And yes, Ancient Greeks, Persians and Romans were also Blue-eyed, Fair-haired, and light skinned. And they also mixed with the darker races, And their Empires and High Culture crumbled. You will likely in your lifetime see the same thing happen to Europe and and the USA.
“Eli”…
Kellscross,
The truth is self evident.
*My my it is, isn’t it “Eli”*
You said: “it is a sketch from Minutoli in 1820 and an Afrocentric has made it much darker than the original sketch.”
You make refuting your silliness way too easy. Anyone with a search engine can look at images of the original depictions and many other paintings and glyphs. They are consistent and far from what you try to pass off as “afrocentric.”
*That post was directed to “Daniel” unless you are “Daniel” now going under a new pseudonym out of pure embarrassment…So why post a modern day sketch when one can refer to the original, “Eli”? What is the purpose or agenda?*
A question for your small mind. Does paint tend to darken or lighten over thousands of years? Does it fade, or become more rich and vibrant with color over millennia? Which is it?
*Well mental deficient, it depends on the condition or environment. In a sealed up dark tomb there should be no discoloration – at the very most we can expect flaking.*
Well we already know with the naked eye Egyptians normally painted themselves a pretty dark shade of brown, even as we are viewing their art thousands of years later. So with the wildest stretch of logic let’s pretend the images as we see them are pristine and the colors have not faded at all over time. Even with that stretch the images are considerably dark/brown. Or, as you like to quip “non-white.”
*Dark brown?…surely you jest. Tell me “Eli” does Khnumnakht look “dark brown” to your naked eyes?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterjr1961/3787354209/
Oh I am sure you will hit back posting “darker” images but “darker” does not mean they are negroid – which is no doubt what you are trying to imply. Referring back to the original painting created by the Egyptians themselves, you will note the Egyptian has the exact same phenotype as the Libyan and not the negroid. Why is that? Could it be because…
“Libya and Egypt are also the smallest genetic distances away from European populations. Demic diffusion during the Neolithic period could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe through a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East…The genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.” (Population History of North Africa: Evidence from Classical Genetic Markers” Bosch et al.) *
Here is another good one for you: why is it that no one ever attempts to dispute whether the ancient Greeks were “black” or “white?” Why is it that no one ever attempts to dispute whether the ancient Romans were “black” or “white?” Why is it that no one attempts to dispute whether the ancient Chinese were “black” or “white?” Yet the controversy of the Egyptians runs on like no other ancient civilization… why?
*Hmmm could it be because this is the “Egyptian Mummies with Blond, Brown and Red hair” forum? Go ponder those thoughts in an appropriate forum elsewhere.*
Shouldn’t the answer be simple? The answer is actually pretty clear. Euroscentrist also know exactly why the controversy persists. Answer that simple question for yourself, deep within, with the savor of intellectual honesty, and enlightenment will rapidly flood your soul.
*What is this>? You resort to tap dancing because you can not refute hard DNA evidence… Here is you’re intellectual honesty…
“Given all of the above, it is not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population at the time.”
“The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is southern (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in both group and unknown analyses. However, lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed also, thus making for great diversity…The Maghreb series does have a modal pattern most similar to late lower dynastic Egyptians.”
“It is clear however from the unknown analyses that the Abydos centroid value is explained primarily by the relatively greater number of crania with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and European patterns in the series.”
“This may denote the range of variation encompassed by the coastal northern pattern, given its intermediate position, or reflect the presence of middle easterners.”
These come from Keita. Isn’t he one of the guys from YOUR side of the aisle? *
So, Kellscross, you have it chap: the Egyptians were black caucasians, originally from Punt, the horn of Africa the sacred land of black caucasians. The Ethiopians are black caucasians. The Eritreans are black caucasians. The Somalis are black caucasians… LOL… yeah right?
*There is no such thing as “black Caucasians” there is no anthropological or genetic evidence to support your fallacious remarks. What you have in East Africa are mixtures and the sub-Saharan Fulani have substantial amount of Western European DNA and North Africa predominately Caucasoid (that inclueds Egypt). Refute the DNA evidence in the posts aforesaid or don’t bother wasting my time, “Eli”. *
Nikrit,
This isn’t Stormfront. I notice you didn’t have a single thing to say concerning the last post directed to you. And of course you won’t refute the DNA because you can’t. You really should be ashamed of yourself posting (abusing) on web forums from a school computer paid for by taxpayers. They fire people for such offenses.
Ohzone,
That is correct. Even wood becomes darker over time. As in the case of the Tiye bust. It was crafted out of Yew wood.
A rather fresh cut of Yew wood:
http://hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/yew%20thumb.jpg
“The color of the yewwood gave the face a bright orange hue”, is the direct quote from the English version of Berlin’s Egyptian Museum “Masterpieces” catalog (Wildung, Dietrich. Egyptian Art in Berlin: Masterpieces in the Bodemuseum and in Charlottenburg. Verlag Philipp von Zaber. p.22. 1996. ISBN 3-8053-1631-3)
Notice with all the mummies there is only one that doesnt fit in with the rest (Maihepri). With all the Afrocentric hype and lies of Egypt being a “blacK” civilization, surely the vast majority should look like woolly headed negroids, but all they’ve got is just ONE? It is really quite telling and very laughable indeed.
kellscross,
I have no idea what you’re insuating in this last post; i’m not on a school computer; i’m on my home laptop; my earlier post may have been from a public library computer, which is entirely coincidental, relating only to what errands i ran today.
furthermore, if you might’ve noticed some of my earlier post in this and other threds dealing with this subject, you’d note that I’ve clearly indicated that i’m not scientifically knowledgeabout this subject. What appalls and bemuses me to no end is how so many seemingly smart, scientifically knowledgeable and curious people can become so juvenile and mean-spirited in defense of arguments about whose ethnicity presided over a set piece of land thousands of years ago. it’s not like the people you accuse of being wrong are setting the agenda and public record on the matter, is it? perhaps you could even tamper down your ill will and instinctively rude manner of engaging with others online and even sympathize with people who, for whatever reason, are so painfully desperate to interpret certain historical periods to coincide with their ethnic wishes. you seem, in moments, like a reasonably informed and educated person; so, in that spirit, i suggest you look over some of your posts here and on other sites, and consider the incredible rudeness and generally childish way you and others engage with each other in these debates; to a relative outsider like myself, it really is amusing to amazing to me how you all get so worked up over these entirely non-essential and currently engrossing matters!
kellscross wrote,
“This isn’t Stormfront. I notice you didn’t have a single thing to say concerning the last post directed to you…”
I noticed in an earlier post you made on another blog, you said something about your ‘olive, mediterranean complexion,’ and how this wasn’t ‘negroid’ or typical of other Afrocentric claims about Egyptian ethnicity, so I took that as a claim that you were Egyptian but not of the background that Afrocentrists claim for Egyptians, etc…
If that’s not the case, I stand corrected; still, my contentions about your and other ‘Egypt-origin bloggers’ incredibly childish and rude manners stand unimpugned!
Maiherpri is actually wearing a wig. That is not his own hair, dummy.
Lol. You’re right, Eli = Daniel. The moderators blocked me because my comments were too weighty. I guess it’s because I too easily expose the childishness of Eurocentrisitic thought with its all too evident agenda… racism. Yet when the racism and antisemitism flares they go head and post it with gusto.
Why is it that there’s a silly convenient Eurocentric response for everything: “please ignore the consistent dark brown depictions, as we know these have darkened over the centuries, the portraits were actually once white… no really they were,” “please ignore Punt, it was really a Indo-European/Aryan outpost on the horn of Africa… no really it was,” “please disregard the current physical features of Amhara Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalis being similar to how Egyptians depicted themselves, even though they are from the same region (i.e. Punt) the Ancient Egyptians claimed to be from, there is no similarity, and if you do find a similarity please categorize these all these people groups as “non-white” caucasians… no really they are,” “please ignore all myriads archeological evidence of anything pointing connecting “black” people to Egypt, either they were slaves akin to the American colonies, or they weren’t real blacks, they were “non-white” caucasians too… no really they were. Etc, etc, etc. Ad infinitum.
And the debate of the race/ethnicity of the Egyptians will rage on as has not happened with any other ancient culture. Why? Because people don’t easily disregard what is in front of their eyes and it’s extremely difficult to turn the Egyptians into white Europeans though many in futility attempt to.
It’s like placing a chicken before a rational thinking person and telling them it’s a pink flamingo. You may be able to quasi-semantic and pseudo-science them into denying it’s a chicken, but they will likely never call it a flamingo. No matter how much you whine or harass.
Give it up Eurocentricts. You’re on the fringe and a dying breed. The broader scientific community discredited your claims long ago.
You guys are children.
Guy,
let me ask outright: is it true that you blocked Daniel? And if so, may I ask why? I didn’t notice him breaking any clear etiquette policy, yet I have a bit of difficulty believing you’d censor him solely because you disagreed with his interpretations.
OhZone,
“Paint gets darker over time, unless it is exposed to the Sun.”
Pardon me. Next time I visit a museum and see the Tutankhamun exhibit or any other Egyptians artifacts, which were entombed, I’ll remember this. Even though many are dilapidated, cracking, paint chipping, and very clearly fading (there are too many examples to note) I will remember this. The already faded paint and colors were at one time much, much, more faded then they are now.
When I see a faded entombed painting, I’ll remember that in its now faded state it originally must have been painted a delicate wispy translucent color, and has only become darker over the ages.
When I see Egyptian portraits of “white” ethnicities from Syria and other northern regions, I will remember the white paint is mere illusion, a cruel trick of time. The white paint was originally an ephemeral invisible transparent, and has only darkened to white over millenia.
Any pigments that now appear white… nope they were once transparent.
Any pigments that now appear tan… nope they were once translucent.
Any pigments that now appear brown/black… nope they were once white.
Does anyone else see how silly Eurocentrists are?
Eli/Daniel-
Geneticists have tested Egyptians as well as other North Africans. We don’t have to look at busts and murals and guess at their ancestry. We know what it is. They are the descendants of middle eastern migrants. The results were written up in the American Journal of Human Genetics. The full report can be accessed online. This is a link to the abstract.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)62417-3
Fred,
“We have typed 275 men from… Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt…”
Please explain to me what the study you linked to has to do with the origins and ancestry of the ancient Egyptians? Are you delusional?
Can anyone say anachronistic?
DaniEli-
I see you’ve managed to read part of the first sentence of the abstract. Unfortunately, you missed the title which was:
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
The emphasis on “Neolithic” is mine. In case you don’t know what “Neolithic” means it “was a period in the development of human technology, beginning about 9500 BC in the Middle East.” And in case you are unaware geneticists can not only determine where a population is from but when as well. Anachronistic? I think not.
Fred you’re pretty dumb. The study you linked to is a test of modern DNA and has nothing to do with ancient Egyptians. You must not understand what anachronistic means. I’ll give you an analogy to make it clear.
Let’s say we tested the DNA of 50 Irish Americans from Boston, Massachusetts, and 50 African Americans from Chicago, Illinois. We then traced their ancestries back 9000 years to Europe and Africa respectively. This study could very well be valid.
However, if based on the study we made the statement “the ancient Americans can be traced back to Europe and Africa 9000 years ago,” this would not be valid. Fred, do you see why the above inference would not be valid?
I hate coming onto blogs like this because I have to explain the most simple concepts.
With Fred’s scientific leanings I could go out today, grab some DNA samples from Italian teenagers, and draw valid conclusions about the ancient Etruscan civilization. If only science worked like that….
Don’t play stupid with me, “nikcrit” you will not win. You have admitted to using (abusing) school computers at school (including lunch break) while posting “race games with names” and other ridiculous rants on the taxpayers dime – this amounts to theft and easily a fire-able offense.
###”In fact, I’m in a city grade school right now as part of my job, and I’m looking at the enrollment for all K-4 and K-5 kindergarteners in this particular school — and, believe it or not, I see two kids named Robert Jones, both African-American (however, no Cathy Smiths!).” October 13, 2009 2:47pm###
Sound familiar, “nikcrit”? You go on and on… It’s obviously not a “library” as you so claimed in other words you lied out of cowardice.
What you fail to realize is that the insults ALWAYS come from YOUR side of the aisle FIRST – case in point you (Nov 2, 2009 10:20am +); “Daniel aka Eli”; and now “Ebony” yet you are quick to lash out at those who retaliate at such insults, hypocrite.
I never claimed to have an “olive Mediterranean complexion” and the onus is on you to provide proof that I did. Since when is Mediterranean skin tone reduced only to Egypt?
The rest of your rant is nothing more than overblown emotional rhetoric.
Ebony,
Ebony Rochelle Allen I presume?
###“Maiherpri is actually wearing a wig. That is not his own hair, dummy.”###
Oh how nice, ANOTHER name caller, (take note nikcrit, you damn hypocrite – *giggles*)
Yes “Ebony” he is wearing a wig which could be his own hair. He is negroid, isn’t he? – and that is the type hair negroids have, do they not? Dummy.
“Daniel aka Eli”
A ***PREDOMINATELY NEOLITHIC ORIGIN*** for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
You know precisely what this (Neolithic) means, that is why you make excuse to deny it and resort to insulting others intelligence out of bitterness and hatred of the facts. Typical Afrocentrist.
“We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of *** NEOLITHIC origin.*** Thus, we propose that the *** NEOLITHIC transition*** in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists ***FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.***
(emphasis mine)…
And I still have yet to see you debunk any of the other DNA studies I presented earlier. You wont because you cant
“Daniel/Eli”,
Can you provide evidence that these paintings which never saw daylight for thousands of years managed to magically lighten up and in its course supposedly and magically change phenotype as well?
Where is your evidence that the Amhara Ethiopians are pure negroids “Daniel/Eli”? Why do they cluster with North Africans before sub-Saharans? Could it be, because:
“The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. … The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position.” (De Stefano et al., Ann Hum Biology 2002)
“Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N” (Toomas Kivisild et al., 2004)
“the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times.” (Passarino et al)
How is the image on the Coffin of Khnumnakht not white? http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterjr1961/3787354209/
Interesting this simple question has managed to escape you three times so far, hence: October 27, 2009 at 1:29 pm; November 3, 2009 at 10:14 pm; November 6, 2009 at 6:09 pm You have a constant pattern of ignoring basic questions “Daniel/Eli” and when you cant answer them, you resort to down right lies and insults. How about all those DNA studies that you ignored?
Why don’t you provide some sort of reference as to the Egyptians themselves claiming their origins in the horn, “Daniel/Eli”? Your ideology is full of holes. The Horn has been fully investigated and bears no trace of any shrine to Hathor. There are no ancient construction houses on stilts. The references in Hatshepsut’s accounts to the “two sides of the sea” and “terraces” on both sides, can not refer to Somalia which faces open water and has no facing, terraced hills. Compelling evidence for the location of Punt: http://www.specialtyinterests.net/sheba.html
Egyptians are negroids? http://www.flickr.com/photos/8282545@N06/2633957333/
“Local comparisons between Upper Egyptians were carried out with other ethnic groups in Egypt, based on frequency and molecular data. No differences were observed in comparison with a general ***Caucasian*** population from Cairo in any of the nine loci compared or with Egyptian Christians from Cairo…Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. ****The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others.”**** (Genetic variation of 15 autosomal STR loci in Upper (Southern) Egyptians Omran et al 2008)
I actually thought you would have had the mental capacity to present some sort of argument or rebuttal by now, but as expected, you resort to the typical juvenile slander and insults for lack of intellect. You’re all mouth and no substance. No wonder why you’re so hateful and bitter.
You are a racist Afrocentrist consumed by an irrational fear of facts and a warped view of history.
kellscross,
fyi, i am a school administrator and do occasionally post on district-wide and owned computers that i access with my school i.d. (if that concerns you, though i don’t know why it should, i’m allowed to do as much); re: the exchanges between you and me on saturday: i did indeed message you from a public access computer in a public library in my hometown, while my niece checked out a few books (no, they weren’t about ancient Egypt). The posts you cited and quoted of mine were done some time back and very well could’ve come from a school district computer; as for ‘race-name games’, i don’t know what you’re talking about; perhaps that was the thread title i posted to.
In any case, I realize it was a mistsake trying to converse with someone so paranoid and hysterical. So, don’t let me further interrupt your juvenile and vindictive ranting.
Real hypocritical “nikcrit” you accuse others of that which you are guilty of. You drew “blood” (insults) here first and directed them specifically towards me when I wasnt even discussing with you; and now that you have been exposed as a fraud, thief and liar, thus your knee-jerk response is to resort to spiteful hostilities because of it.
School administrator? You of all people should know better. What did I tell you about playing stupid, these werent exchanges between you and I, “nikcrit” oh no… dont fool yourself bub. You have shown yourself using the taxpayers school computer for your own personal pleasures and agendas. And you have the nerve to be upset with me for our own downfall, theif? Now, what I suggest you do is apologize to everyone that you insulted in here – as that would be the intelligent thing to do, wouldn’t it “nikcrit” or your job could be on the line, and if I were you I wouldn’t make lite of it either.
http://guywhite.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/racism-in-the-job-market/
You’re mistake was hurling the first insult, ignoring insults by others of your ilk, lacking the ability to debate/refute/answer head on, falsely accusing me of saying things I never said, lying about your computer activities, etc.
Oh what’s the word…Maniacal – with a capital M!
kellscross,
Okey-dokey,
1) I thought I explained that i’m allowed to make the posts that I did; sorry if you don’t believe me, but there’s nothing to apologize for — thus, i contend that i’m not a “theif” nor am i making ‘lite’ of it.
Like I said, it was my mistake posting to you; I mistakenly thought you were sane.
But trust that it won’t happen again.
Kellscorss & Others,
The following is from a discussion I was having with an Ethiopian JEWISH (Beta Israel) friend this weekend. His name is Yonas. He moved from Ethiopia to Israel during the first Aliya and has lived in Vancouver BC most of his adult life with the broader Ethiopian community. So he has intimate knowledge of the Ethiopian community in Africa, Israel, and the West. The ideas are his, the typing is mine. So it’s a mixed bag. Concerning the Ethiopian community I can say this, from the year I spent in Israel, they are the most polite Israelis I have ever met, and the most disrespected much like the Temani/Yemeni Jews. Very humble. Additionally, they are very proud of their culture but far from Afrocentrists. For those with limited intelligence who will post crazy responses, Ethiopians have no connection to African Americans or West Africans. Just like Armenians have not connection to Brits or American whites.
This was our general response to postings on Mathilda’s blog. I doubt Mathilda will ever post it…
Response:
LOL! Don’t trust any study Western eurocentrists flaunt regarding “Ethiopian” DNA. The genetic studies are flawed and, dare I say, intentionally skewed. Italian colonialism and barbarism in both Ethiopia and Eritrea left hundreds of thousands of mixed race children of Italian descent behind. It’s no wonder the studies tout “caucasoid gene flow mainly through males.” I wonder how many “Ethiopians” of Italian lineage were “selected” for these fine studies.
So the 77-200 “Ethiopians” in Denmark, chosen for these “studies,” many of whom are the likely mixed descendants of Italians since the 1930’s are supposed give us definitive DNA data for 80 million Ethiopians! Remarkable! The smoke and mirrors is never ending.
Just read the wording from the Scacci study Mathilda posted: “Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans.” In-other-words, “Ethiopians are not Africans; they are actually caucasians/indo-europeans/mediterraneans,” ad infinitum. Does this statement not smack with agenda? And from a researcher with an Italian surname no less? Just another colonist diatribe. The eurocentrists message in more clear terms is: “any civilization, writing systems, achievements or advancements from the horn of Africa to Egypt is due to ‘caucasoid’ gene flow, and not the other way around. We are your benefactors.” Lame.
Some may dismiss my statements as paranoid or conspiratorial drivel, however, just about every ancient non-white civilization has been latched onto by eurocentrics who wish to co-opt and claim it as their own. Examples: The Khmer were too primitive to build Angkor Wat – light-skinned outsiders must have accomplished it; the Shona were too primitive to build Great Zimbabwe – light-skinned outsiders must have accomplished it; the Aztecs were too primitive to build Tenochtitlan – Quetzalcoatl their “white sky-god” was a light-skinned visitor who must have instructed them; Dravidian civilization does not exist – light-skinned outsiders must have civilized India. The list goes on.
Below is a quote from Professor Paul Sinclair, Curator of Archaeology at the Shona city of Great Zimbabwe. The quote is a chilling example of the insidious measures eurocentrists will employ to maintain their “scientific” ideologies:
“I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organization to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurizing them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people [i.e. Chinese or Arabs] had built it, but I wasn’t allowed to mention radio carbon dates… It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored.”
I won’t even post the most recent statements of the researchers who were immediately fired from their jobs and sent packing when they raised considerable objections to the “scientific” methods used to create the controversial eurocentric King Tut bust…
Civilization spread from the horn of Africa. Ethiopia was powerful on its own and spread its culture, achievements, and DNA as far as Persia and India. Of course, ancient outside sources Greek, Roman, and Arab tell a much different story of Ethiopia’s greatness than modern eurocentrist spin. Never doubt who we are.
The current information brokers and those in power will frame history and guide scientific thought in such a way that will leave their power and perceived superiority unchallenged. If a study comes out that tells the same old “caucasians are the kings of the world” story, then be very skeptical.
“nikcrit” you are a thief and a liar. You are using state funded computers from an elementary school for personal entertainment during working hours. Now if I were “insane” as you imply, then I wouldn’t have been able to expose your lies and thievery (among other issues). You are running scared which is a typical reaction – insults and all. You’re job is on the line and you think this is funny? I am sure your local school board will see who is sane when your racial rantings are emailed to them. Do you actually want them knowing about these “extra curricular” activates?
Tsk tsk!
Kellscross,
I think you’re being presumptive in assuming that ‘my school board’ knows how to read — but please, go ahead and e-mail ‘em!
Hey Kells,
Trust me, Nikcrit isn’t the only one wondering if you’re sane!
Let me settle this blonde hair argument. I will do so using data from the following graph (note: ignore the “true negroid” non-sense:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/et-graph.gif
The Egyptians claimed ancestry from the land of Punt. The consensus, or majority view among scholars locates Punt on the horn of Africa: Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Southern Sudan.
According to the graph, East Africans (Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans) share the closest affinities to Melanesians of Oceania, as indicated by the asterisk. Melanesians are “black” people who often have extremely blonde hair. I posted a succession of pictures of Melanesians a while ago. Why do we see pictures of dark brown Egyptians with blonde hair? Is this an anomaly? NO! Modern black/dark-brown people in the same region have close affinities with other black/dark-brown people with blonde hair. CASE CLOSED!
Let’s get over this whole “negroid” thing you eurocentrists are so hung up on. Africans are not a monolithic group. West Africans differ from Southern Africans, who differ from East Africans… who differ from non-African Melanesians. However, any one of these groups when seen by the rest of the world are called and considered to be “blacks.” CASE CLOSED!
“Eli/Daniel”
Again, you neglect to answer simple questions.
* How is the image on the Coffin of Khnumnakht not white?
* Why no response on “A ***PREDOMINATELY NEOLITHIC ORIGIN*** for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa”?
* How about all the other DNA studies that you ignored?
* Where is a reference of the Egyptians themselves claiming descent from “Punt”?
* Where is your evidence that the Amhara Ethiopians are pure negroids?
* If Egyptians were negroids how do you explain this? http://www.flickr.com/photos/8282545@N06/2633957333/
Why are simple questions so challenging to you? Obviously the deafening silence is a telling tale. If this is the BEST Afrocentrism has to “offer” you must be an embarrassment.
LMAO! Even the graph YOU presented (
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/et-graph.gif )
supports the DNA evidence that I have cited all along:
“The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. … The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position.” (De Stefano et al., Ann Hum Biology 2002)
“Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N (Toomas Kivisild et al., 2004)
“the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times.” (Passarino et al)
“To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of ‘northern’ or ’southern’ affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan…we can infer that the migration of northern mtDNA types to the south is older than the migration of southern mtDNA types to the north… there are, nonetheless, significant differences in the composition of the mtDNA gene pools of the Egyptian, Nubian, and southern Sudanese samples (Krings et al.)
“Even a presumably homogeneous population such as the Meroitic Nubians shows extensive variation that preclude its classification as a geographic group. (“Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptionsabout Human Variation” 2005)
“We study the major levels of Y-chromosome haplogroup variation in 15 Sudanese populations by typing major Y-haplogroups in 445 unrelated males representing the three linguistic families in Sudan. Our analysis shows Sudanese populations fall into haplogroups A, B, E, F, I, J, K, and R in frequencies of 16.9, 7.9, 34.4, 3.1, 1.3, 22.5, 0.9, and 13% respectively…. haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group…. haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and J2-M172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups.” (“Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History” Hisham Y. Hassan, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, et al 2008)
Why do you constantly ignore the DNA? Denial? Racism? Afrocentric? Of course! There are plenty more studies where these came from “Daniel/Eli” all confirming one another and you can not refute it. All these Caucasian haplogroups managed to penetrate as far as Sudan/Ethiopia, yet you want to believe that this DNA magically skirted around ancient Egypt. You would have us believe there were Whites in Libya, Whites in the Levant, yet Egypt was free of them?
According to the graph YOU presented, those Oceanic populations are split right down the middle between Caucasian and Ethiopian and since Ethiopians are roughly half Caucasian, this places Oceanic populations closer to Caucasian populations HENCE:
“Dark skin color is an indicator of long-term residence in areas of intense solar radiation, but it cannot help distinguish one tropical population from another. There is the very real possibility, for example, that the darker skin pigmentation visible in the people of the Upper Nile is not caused by the mixing of a population that came from somewhere else. Instead, it could just be the result of selection operating on the people who were already there, as has been suggested by those who have argued for the continuity of human biological form through time in Nubia (Adams, 1979; Batrawi, 1946 [in marked contrast to 19351; Berry et al., 1967; Carlson and Van Gerven, 1977, 1979; Greene, 1966,1972; Van Gerven, 1982; Van Gerven et al., 1973
However, “Daniel/Eli” we know that Oceanic/Melanesian populations never inhabited Egypt, dont we? We also know that DNA studies NEVER classify ancient or modern Egyptians as “Ethiopians” or even negroids, dont we? This is how desperate you racist Afrocentrics have become...
Whatever negroids in Ethiopia that have “blonde” hair is a rarity but stems from their ancient Caucasian DNA. And those are not genuine blondes either, further over time that hair becomes black. Now contrast that with forensics tests on Ramses II who had naturally wavy red hair and White skin:
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy’s scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy’s hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair’s original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramses’ natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]
Balout and Roubet were under no illusions as to the significance of this discovery, and they concluded as follows:
“After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L’Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a ’leucoderm’, that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa.” Balout, et al. (1985) 383.
True negroids do not have naturally straight or wavy blonde, red or brown hair as indicated in the murals of ancient Egypt or the mummies, neither do Ethiopians… nor do they have blue eyes as in the various sculptures. So just how many wavy red haired White leucoderm negroids have you come across, “Daniel/Eli”? What you’re trying to do is deny that there are White people that come in the natural color of blonde.
You are bouncing all over the world trying reach for something that isn’t there, “Daniel/Eli” West Africans, Southern Africans, East Africans and Melanesians are not Egyptians. CASE CLOSED!
Can you give me the GPS coordinates of Punt? No you can not, some Egyptologist are at a loss of the exact location some speculate it is in Lebanon, Petrie stated it was in Mesopotamia… and according to the Egyptians themselves (since you refuse to provide any reference of the sort) it is Lebanon:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9wfO73QN6VcC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=%E2%80%9CThe+myrrh+of+Punt+has+been+brought+to+me+%E2%80%A6&source=web&ots=wWr76uPtQT&sig=KbloGc4odoMcXAXTvOXUrN-xj-I&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9CThe%20myrrh%20of%20Punt%20has%20been%20brought%20to%20me%20%E2%80%A6&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-3p5cfv6T_MC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=punt+byblos&source=web&ots=G_lj07M2xt&sig=DsoIjv9t2a3-FA-8f90yQcWI3YE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#v=onepage&q=punt%20byblos&f=false
And no one cares about third party opinions from another typical Afrocentric (re “Yonas”) who managed to escape hell hole Ethiopia while living comfortably in a White nation.
“Essbro”
You did offer some intelligence on this thread, but your latest sneer (at me) makes it seem like it’s coming from another typical Afrocentric who feels left out of the conversation.
(see who ALWAYS starts the insults first, eh nikcrit – just another example of how your side proves me right every time!)
Now buzz off, loser.
As for that picture of that Egyptian woman what the hell does she have to do with ancient Egyptians? Modern Egyptians are the descendants of invaders.
KellsCross-
I agree with your position but you undermine your own credibility with personal attacks. I realize DaniEli made some snarky comments. He baited you a little. But you didn’t have to take the bait. The only reason people are criticizing you instead of him is because you refuse to tone it down.
When you read this don’t respond immediately. Take some time to review this thread. Think about it. Sleep on it. I think you’ll agree that there is something to what I’ve said.
Actually, I’m much closer to the Race Realist side and don’t agree with Afrocentric ideas. You must be another one who assumes me to be black because of my moniker. Sorry, but I’m white.
If you hadn’t been such a confrontational smartass in your comments, Kells, you wouldn’t have invited any sneers. Resorting to namecalling will only invite more.
ebony writes, “Modern Egyptians are the descendants of invaders.”
That is more true than you realize. Yara Naoum is Lebanese! LOL!
“Essbro”
A pseudonym has no bearing on the content being discussed. Maybe you think it does since you mentioned it…
Simple observation of this thread shows who started with the hostilities and you pointed that out when “Daniel/Eli” arrived. When they were directed at me, I retaliated. Maybe where you come from you allow people to walk all over you. I don’t and I’m not crying over it either, “essbro”. And if you notice when the insults toned down, so did I.
Lets observe the hypocrisy….In your initial post to me, you hurled a cheap shot, yet in return I went as far as to state that you offered some intelligent conversation, but also in return of your accusation, I retaliated, naturally in defense tit for tat…. but alas, in your latest response you resort to dictating at me, while cussing at me. See the pattern? **You** started with the confrontation and name calling against me. It would be nice if you engaged in a civil discourse instead of petty insults, that is if there is anything you have to offer to this thread.
“Fred”,
The double standards in this thread are outrageous and hypocritical. I encourage you to actually read the entire thread and take note.
The burden is on you to prove that Miss Egypt is “Lebanese”.,,or that the general population of Egypt is negroid for that matter.
Egypt engaged in modern slavery.
There is no agreement on the exact number of black slaves in Egypt during the latter half of the nineteenth century, when the trade in slaves from the Sudan reached its peak. Gabriel Baer wrote that while it was impossible to establish the exact number of slaves in Egypt at any time in that century, he could estimate—on the basis of contemporary British accounts, the census of 1850 and from the records of the Slave Trade Bureaux established after the Anglo-Egyptian Convention in 1877—that throughout the century the number of slaves remained between 20,000 and 30,000. Judith Tucker never arrived at a total figure of slaves, although she posited that between 1877 and 1905, 25,000 slaves were manumitted in Egypt. The majority of negroid slaves in Egypt were women who served as domestic workers in private homes, although in upper Egypt there were documented examples of agricultural slavery, and many slaves were recruited for military service early in the centuryas well.
“Ebony” aka “Ebony Allen”
What the hell does she have to do with ancient Egyptians? She is an Egyptian, that’s what. You have a rotten attitude. What do sub-Saharan negroids have to do with ancient Egyptians? Now, I made statements on Maiherpri and you ignored it.
“The Nubian fan bearer, Maherpra, was also buried in the Royal Valley, but in contrast to the previous highly artificial styles he wore a unique coiffure of short tight spirals of his own heliotrichous (Negroid) hair set over his shaven head, creating the impression of a totally natural style. (Daressy 1903, p. 74-75. (“The Ostragon” volume 13, number 2, 2002)
Why don’t you try to refute it “Ebony” instead of using emotionalism! You told me that we have to “imagine” them “black” lol…
Carabelli’s cusp is found in Europeans HENCE:
“It is commonly seen in persons of Caucasian ancestry.” (Mosby’s Medical Dictionary, 8th edition 2009 Elsevier)
“Carabelli’s cusp is common in Europeans” (Haines 1972)
Saqqara (SAQ) shows 100% or all 41samples taken from 2613-2494B.C. have Carabelli’s trait. J.D. Irish “Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through post dynastic peoples.”
[The Egyptian] samples [996 mummies] exhibit morphologically simple, mass-reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000)
Ancient Egyptians had simple, mass reduced teeth. This contrasts with the dental pattern of Sub-Saharan Africans who had (Irish, 2000) massive complex teeth.” “Dentitions of Late Pleistocene Jebel Sahaba Nubians have extremely high frequencies of complex, mass-additive (and other) traits” (Irish & Turner, 1990; Irish, 1993, 1997, 1998a,b)
“the observation that teeth of American blacks are larger than those of American whites.” (“Tissue contributions to sex and race: Differences in tooth crown size of deciduous molars” Edward F. Harris, Joseph D. Hicks, Betsy D. Barcroft College of Dentistry, University of Tennessee 2001)
“The dental analysis is concerned with morphological variation in the permanent dentition (ages 6 to adult). Each specimen was inspected for usable teeth, and up to 36 discrete dental and osseous oral traits. Additional anatomical and cultural dental features (313 possible observations per individual) were documented for potential future study. The traits are included in the Arizona State University (ASU) dental anthropology system. Procedures used in the ASU system are based on well-established criteria for scoring intra-trait variation. The dental traits in each individual were recorded, using 23 reference casts. The reason for selecting these particular traits concerns their individual and collective expression in Africa, as well as in Asia, Europe, and the Americas, to facilitate a comparison of suites of features within and among samples and regions. Once the data are recorded, the normal procedure is to determine frequencies of trait occurrence and apply one of several multivariate distance statistics (e.g., Mean Measure of Divergence) to the discrete frequency data for inter sample comparative purposes. Because this report is preliminary, statistical analyses have not yet been undertaken. However, based on a qualitative inspection of the dentitions, it appears that: 1) dental phenetic homogeneity was prevalent among the Hierakonpolis inhabitants; and 2) they exhibit dental traits that ally them with other post-Pleistocene populations in greater North Africa. Prior work shows North Africans have morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. This dental pattern was shown to be ubiquitous among samples, regardless of distance—from the Canary Islands to Egypt and Nubia—or time—from 8,000 year-old Capsians to recent Berbers in western North Africa. This pattern, termed the “North African Dental Trait Complex,” includes high frequencies of several traits such as an interruption groove on UI2, M3 agenesis, and rocker jaw, plus a low occurrence of LM2 Y-5 groove pattern. All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree, but are uncommon in sub-Saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent… At present, my qualitative inspection of the 14 crania appears to support the preliminary dental findings: 1) Hierakonpolis inhabitants appear to be uniform in cranial size and form, and 2) they show some resemblance to other post-Pleistocene populations of North Africa, as well as Europe and West Asia. They appear distinct from post-Pleistocene sub-Saharan Africans.” ( “Preliminary Report on Analyses of the Hierakonpolis Human Remains” Dr. Joel D. Irish, Dept. of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks; Nekhen News volume 12 Page 9& 10 2000)
KellsCross writes, “The burden is on you to prove that Miss Egypt is “Lebanese”.,,or that the general population of Egypt is negroid for that matter. ”
I never said the general population of Egypt was negroid. I’ve been arguing that they were caucasian. That does not, however, change the fact that Miss Egypt is Lebanese. She says it on her facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Yara-Naoum/21776175503?v=info
Good, finally someone that can answer straighforward. Ok so it says she is “Lebanese/Egyption” on her facebook which appears to have been created by a fan which could even be wrong. This could even mean she is half Egyptian but this doesnt negate the fact that there are lots of full blooded Egyptians that also look like her.
What we already know is that:
“Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilisation as black has no element of truth to it.” and this comes from Zahi Hawass, the head of Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities.
See what I’m saying, “Fred”?
http://gallery.funonthenet.in/709-4/miss_egypt_13.jpg
Participants of Miss Egypt 2007
http://en.ce.cn/World/gallery/200704/22/W020070422360720629704.jpg
Kells,
Hopefully this is my last post to you, because I think you are completely insane and don’t know how to read.
No one here has been trying to prove the Egyptians are West Africans. Or as you would like to say “negroids.” They were North East Africans.
What I have been asserting is that the Egyptians were most likely an Afroasiatic people as the current Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalis are Afroasiatic people groups. Their closet relatives are within Africa, and when we look outside of Africa we find those closest to them are Melanesians.
I think why you’re getting so upset is because Tishkoff and Ehret make your misrepresentation of data look foolish. These aesthetic and gene characteristics you are labeling “caucasoid” has been shown by Tishkoff-Ehret to be indigenous to Africa. In other words, these “caucasoid” characteristic both genetic and linguistic FIRST ORIGINATED IN AFRICA, ARE NATIVE TO AFRICA, EMERGED FROM AFRICA, and spread to the Middle East/Eurasia FROM AFRICA. Not the other way around. Both DNA and linguistic evidence strongly support a diffusion from Africa and not into it. Back-migration is plausible, but the best evidence says otherwise.
Other East Africans also have copious amounts of what you would like to believe are “caucasoid” genetic traits all throughout Kenya and Tanzania. I’m sure you thought horn of Africa populations were the only groups, but alas, the out of Africa model seems to be the most accurate.
Tishkoff-Ehret have conducted the most comprehensive African DNA and linguistic study to date. I suggest you give it a read.
In the same vein as Essbro, I am not an Afrocentric. I am an American Sephardi Jew. My grandparents are from Morocco. Many Sephardic songs borrow their melodies from Berber or Arab melodies. We have a long history in Africa.
So I come into this with a clean slate. I don’t have some Nordic/Eurocentric superiority or inferiority complex throwing around erroneous terms like “caucasoid” in some bizarre and convoluted attempt to connect Britain or Germany with East Africa and Arabia. I am proud of my North African roots and have no need to pander to some “super race” or “ancient nordic colonizer” myths.
Kells –
I can see you now. You are a 300 pound bearded man of noble German and Norwegian stock, incessantly blogging naked in your mother’s basement.
In a down economy you were laid off from your union job, for which you ultimately blame the “Blacks” and “Jews.” It’s good being back home though, because mom makes the best meatloaf and tatter-tot casserole. You now have more free time to read the latest racial materials confirming your perceived superiority, which fends off the chronic low self-esteem and bouts with depression.
When you’re not hungrily digesting racial data or tatter-tots, your tomes of choice are either the Book of Revelation or Tim LaHaye’s Left Behind Series. You contemplate “The Rapture” on a daily basis. You are also soundly convinced that Mr. “Hussein” Obama is the Anti-christ, or at least one of Lucifer’s loyal subjects. You deny the holocaust.
My sincere, heartfelt suggestion is seeking a licensed and qualified therapist for help.
This is a picture of Kellscross, per my last post:
http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/fat-blogger.jpg
I think the research of physical anthropology and modern genetics clearly demonstrates that the Egyptians, both ancient and modern, are members of the Mediterranean branch of the Caucasoid race. Egyptians are most closely related to other Mediterranean populations in Southern Europe, North Africa and the Levant; Northeastern Africans such as Ethiopians and Somalis are also genetically related to Egyptians, but this is only because of substantial Caucasoid admixture. Furthermore, it is obvious that Egyptians are indigenous Africans, however this does not make them negroes as Caucasians are the earliest population to have diverged from a single lineage in East Africa.
Besides, all of modern science confirms the Caucasian nature of ancient Egypt. In a 2000 paper by Klintschar et. al., Egyptians, Yemenites, and Austrians are spoken of equally as being members of the Caucasoid race:
All three populations are caucasoid and from the historical,
cultural and geographical point of view one should expect
the Yemenites to be more closely related to the Egyptians
than to central European Austrians. Surprisingly, however,
the geometrically expected ERP values for discriminating
Egyptians and Yemenites are higher than those found
for Austrians and Egyptians (2.35) and Austrians and
Yemenites (3.37; values averaged in both directions, data
not shown), thus suggesting a higher diversity within the
Arab populations than between Europeans and Arabs. A
possible explanation might be the situation of the Arab
countries between Africa and Asia. The heterogeneity might
thus reflect differences in the amalgamation of subsaharan
and caucasoid gene pools to the relatively isolated Yemenite population compared to the more centrally situated Egypt in more recent times or the effect of population migrations during the dispersal of modern humans out of Africa, which is assumed to have taken place through Yemen.
Significant differences between Yemenite and Egyptian STR profiles and the influence on frequency estimations in Arabs
According to Hamdy et. al. (2002), Egyptians most closely resemble Caucasians in terms of the frequency of certain alleles, rather than Asians or African-Americans:
Comparing our data with that obtained in several Caucasian, African-American and Asian populations, we found that Egyptians resemble Caucasians with regard to allelic frequencies of the tested variants of CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2E1 and DPYD. Our results may help in better understanding the molecular basis underlying ethnic differences in drug response, and contribute to improved individualization of drug therapy in the Egyptian population. … In conclusion, the tested allelic variants of CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2E1 and DPYD existed in Egyptian people with frequencies comparable to other Caucasian populations with some differences among Asians and African Americans.
Allele and genotype frequencies of polymorphic cytochromes P450 (CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2E1) and dihydropyrimidine dehydrogenase (DPYD) in the Egyptian population
“Daniel/Eli”
You can not refrain from the insults can you? It’s just typical of someone losing an argument or whatever it is you are postulating here. You have yet to answer any of the questions presented above, it’s evident you demonstrate a lack in reading and comprehension skills on the flip side, I have encountered and beaten down every single “issue” you have coughed up. Gee I wonder why it is so easy for me to do so?!
The ancient Egyptians are north east Africans but geography doesn’t make them negroids. Whites have built up S.A. and various other areas in Africa, but I am sure over the course of time Afrocentrics will lay claim to those architects and their works just as they do now with Egypt. Certainly you have read all the DNA studies presented within this thread and perhaps that is why you are now in retreat mode.
I suspected as much you were a Jew due to your senile rants. You may have a “long history” in Africa but that doesn’t mean anything since your ancestors were expelled from Spain and various other European and Arab nations, you are an outsider who takes; your “roots” are superficial. My recent ancestry comes from the Mediterranean, in areas closer to Egypt than Morocco. And if you knew anything about DNA and haplogroups, you would find that the bulk of European DNA originates from Anatolia/Levant/Middle East so Jews have nothing on that as far as origin is concerned.
The only one pushing Swedes and Nords colonizing Egypt is you. These people were not always in Europe and if the DNA says certain proto European haplogroups were in ancient Egypt as it was, then so be it. You can not refute it.
Melanesians have nothing to do with East Africans – let alone Egyptians, they are not even in the same haplogroup(s).
The DNA that East Africans have is not based on a belief system, “Daniel/Eli” it is an undeniable irrefutable fact that these populations have Caucasian and Arab DNA floating about thru their veins. Study after study confirms this. Sure there are other populations such as the Sub-Saharan Fulani that have substantial amount of Western Eurasian DNA as well – 8.1% on their mtDNA and 53.8% on their yDNA. (mtDNA of Fulani Nomads and Their Genetic Relationships to Neighboring Sedentary Populations 2006); (“Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History” Cavalli-Sforza et al 2008)
When did they acquire this? 4,000 years ago – according to the study, precisely the time when Caucasians were spreading throughout western and central North Africa. No one has asked you to “pander” – you can’t brush all these facts under the rug because you find it inconvenient. Why the embarrassment over irrefutable facts?
What does Dr. Sarah Tishkoff say???
“The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African—that is, the Ethiopian and Somali—populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations.”(S. A. Tishkoff et al., Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:901-925, 2000)
It’s clear that Tishkoff separated African groups even if they never left Africa. Therefore the term “indigenous African” does not apply strictly to negroids only and that they should not necessarily be grouped with them in an anthropological, genetic or racial sense.
“A research team led by Dr. Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland has now solved much of the puzzle. After testing for lactose tolerance and genetic makeup among 43 ethnic groups in East Africa, she and her colleagues have found three new mutations, all independent of one another and of the European mutation, that keep the lactase gene permanently switched on. The principal mutation, found among Nilo-Saharan-speaking ethnic groups of Kenya and Tanzania, arose 2,700 to 6,800 years ago, according to genetic estimates, Dr. Tishkoff’s group reports today in the journal Nature Genetics. This fits well with archaeological evidence suggesting that pastoral peoples ***FROM THE NORTH*** reached northern Kenya about 4,500 years ago and southern Kenya and Tanzania 3,300 years ago.” (“Lactose Tolerance in East Africa Points to Recent Evolution” Nicholas Wade, NY Times Science 2006) [emphasis mine]
What does Christopher Ehret’s latest study reveal???
“The evolution of languages provides a unique opportunity to study human population history. The origin of Semitic and the nature of dispersals by Semitic-speaking populations are of great importance to our understanding of the ancient history of the Middle East and Horn of Africa. Semitic populations are associated with the oldest written languages and urban civilizations in the region, which gave rise to some of the world’s first major religious and literary traditions. In this study, we employ Bayesian computational phylogenetic techniques recently developed in evolutionary biology to analyse Semitic lexical data by modelling language evolution and explicitly testing alternative hypotheses of Semitic history. We implement a relaxed linguistic clock to date language divergences and use epigraphic evidence for the sampling dates of extinct Semitic languages to calibrate the rate of language evolution. Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago.” (“Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East” Christopher Ehret et al., 2009)
Older studies support Ehret:
“Haplogroups M1 and (preHV)1 occurred at almost equal frequencies among Cushitic- and Semitic-speaking populations of Ethiopia. Both haplogroups are also common in western Asian Semitic-speaking populations and have occasionally been found in North and northwestern African Berbers (Rando et al. 1998; Richards et al.2000, 2003; Plaza et al. 2003), which suggests a correlation with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages.” (Forster 2004). [NOTE: M is phylogenetically close to west Eurasian clusters I, W, and X.]
“It seems that gene flow is not only recent (Holocene onward) but also largely of focal nature. Most speakers of Nilo-Saharan languages, the major linguistic family spoken in the country, show very little evidence of gene flow and demonstrate low migration rate, with exception of the Nubians, who appear to have sustained considerable gene flow from Asia and Europe together with the Beja. Both Beja and Nubians lie at entering ports of the Sudan; the Beja in the Red Sea area where past and recent settlements of both Turks and Arabs are evident, and Nubians occupy a strip along the Nile bordering south of Egypt, where successive waves of migration and conquest of the Sudan have passed over the millennia. (MacMichael, 1967; Hassan, 1968). This is attested by the remarkable presence of the J-M172 chromosome known to be quite frequent in Turkey and the Levant, as well as other Eurasian haplogroups, including haplogroup J-12f2 (Al-Zahery, 2003; Giacomo et al., 2004) and the bondage and genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by comparable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade among southern Egyptians (Cruciani et al., 2007)… Considerable frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups including J-12f2 are also present, consistent with a more recent Arabic oral tradition and descent.” (“Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History” Hassan, Underhill, Cavalli-Sforza, Ibrahim 2008) [NOTE: Cruciani et al. (2007) suggest that E-V12 originated in North Africa , and then subsequently expanded further south into the Horn of Africa, where it is now prevalent. (“Congruent distribution of Neolithic painted pottery and ceramic figurines with Y-chromosome lineages” King and Underhill 2002) …“J-M172 which occurs as frequently as J-M267 in some Middle Eastern populations, is the more prevalent in Europe. ]
“We study the major levels of Y-chromosome haplogroup variation in 15 Sudanese populations by typing major Y-haplogroups in 445 unrelated males representing the three linguistic families in Sudan. Our analysis shows Sudanese populations fall into haplogroups A, B, E, F, I, J, K, and R in frequencies of 16.9, 7.9, 34.4, 3.1, 1.3, 22.5, 0.9, and 13% respectively…. haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group…. haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and J2-M172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups.” (“Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History” Hisham Y. Hassan, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, et al 2008)
“Though present-day Ethiopia is a land of great ethnic diversity, the majority of Ethiopians speak different Semitic, Cushitic, and Omotic languages that belong to the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum. Maternal lineages of Semitic- (Amharic, Tigrinya, and Gurage) and Cushitic- (Oromo and Afar) speaking populations studied here reveal that their mtDNA pool is a nearly equal composite of sub-Saharan and western Eurasian lineages. This finding, consistent with classic genetic-marker studies (Cavalli-Sforza 1997) and previous mtDNA results, is also in agreement with a similarly high proportion of western Asian Y chromosomes in Ethiopians (Passarino et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2002), which supports the view (Richards et al. 2003) that the observed admixture between sub-Saharan African and, most probably, western Asian ancestors of the Ethiopian populations applies to their gene pool in general. (Am. J. Hum. Genet., 75:000, 2004)
“The Gaalien from central Sudan occupy a trading crossroad that extends back to the ancient Kingdom of Meroe. The Gaalien exhibits a Y-profile that gives insight into past and recent migrations to the Sudan. Interestingly, they still maintain low frequencies of haplogroup A-M13 and E-M78, which suggests older rooting and relates them to other neighboring populations. Considerable frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups including J-12f2 are also present, consistent with a more recent Arabic oral tradition and descent.” (“Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History” Cavalli-Sforza et al 2008)
“It is reasonable to hypothesize that in the last 5,000 or 6,000 years, White populations arrived in the Sahara from the north or the east and either mixed with or partially replaced the area’s first inhabitants, who were black.”… “At least three major instances of gene flow occurred in the continent of Africa itself (although there are probably many examples that have not been studied.) In North and East Africa, there must have been many opportunities of admixture between Blacks and Whites. In the north there is a preponderance of White genes while Black genes are more predominant in the east (60 percent, on average).”… “The replacement of Neolithic populations with more modern ones occurred most extensively in what is now the Sahara Desert. We must find significant areas of admixture between Whites (Caucasoids) and Blacks in Africa: throughout most of the Sahara where Whites have crossed both the Suez and the Mediterranean, and in East Africa as a result of late Arab contact, which is well documented historically. Ancient cave paintings in the Sahara make it clear the earliest Saharan populations were Black – although possibly mixed with Caucasoids – up to about 5,000 years ago.” (“Genes, People and Languages” Cavalli-Sforza 2000)
[Note: European dna managed to make its way down into Somalia, Ethiopia, etc which is out of the way of Egypt. However Egypt is much closer to the M.E and Europe which would support heavier ancient white dna in Egypt.]
“The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the ability to sail.” (“Genes, Peoples and Languages” Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza 2001 page 122)
“We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged »50,000 years ago.” (“The Emerging Tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region Sequences and RFLPs” Institute of Molecular Medicine, University of Oxford)
“North Africa has had a distinct history, oriented more towards the Mediterranean, since the late Pleistocene.” (“The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape” Antonio Salas et. Al. 2002)
What are your credentials, “Daniel/Eli”? Certainly you are no geneticist, therefore have no authority to discuss matters that you do not comprehend – nor can you accuse these scientific facts as “lies” so you’ve got nothing left.
Well if it makes you feel good to engage in self deception “Daniel/Eli” – as expected you resort to more lies and more lows, baseless racist accusations, you have nothing to stand upon, you are blindly and irrationally hateful and have lost whatever it was you were “arguing” about. It is the very excellence of my words that attracts hostility; for my enemies see quite plainly that it is the excellent rather than the mediocre writers which are a threat to their prejudices, ignorance, stupidity or agendas, and thus it is the excellent writers which in their view must be attacked. Thanks for proving every single one of my points, miserable self loathing sloth. Oh is that your mom in the picture she looks hideously jewey.
I am not fat nor do I have a “pair.” How does it feel to be run over by high heels?
You’re an impotent sack; fear and self-loathing emanate from each of your posts. Try medication for your self-esteem issues. If that doesn’t work, there’s always the option of self-induced euthanasia.
Here we have a study that differentiates between “African” and “Egyptian” thus ruling out that the Egyptian was a negroid.
“A mummy of an Egyptian priestess dating from the 22nd dynasty (c. 770 BC), completely enclosed in an anthropoid (human shaped) coffin, was scanned on a CT scanner. An accurate reconstruction of the cranium was generated from 115 x 2 mm CT images using AVS/Express on a SGI computer. Linear measurements were obtained from six orthogonal cranial views and used in a morphometric analysis software package (CRANID). The analyses carried out were both linear and nearest neighbour discriminant analysis. The results show that there is a 52.9% probability that the mummy is an Egyptian female, with a 24.5% probability that the mummy is an African female. Thus the technique confirms that the coffin contains an Egyptian female, which is consistent with the inscription on the coffin and the shape of the pelvic bones as revealed by plain X-rays. These results show that this technique has potential for analysing forensic cases where the bones are obscured by soft tissue and clothing. This technique may have an application in virtual autopsies. Virtual reconstruction and morphological analysis of the cranium of an ancient Egyptian mummy.” (“Australia’s Phys Eng Sci Med.” 2005)
Kells,
Last post. You say: “these populations have Caucasian and Arab DNA floating about thru their veins.” Are you saying Arabs are not caucasians? I thought they were? I think by your little slip up here it shows what you and I both know, the blanket designation “caucasian” is an erroneous semantic invention that has little relevant meaning.
Also, so you think these mysterious “caucasians” back migrated into Africa with their E1b1b and T “caucasoid” haplotypes?
Sorry kid, look at any credible and comprehensive mapping of these two haplotype groups. The HIGHEST concentrations of these groups are found in the horn of Africa. They then diffuse up to northern parts of Africa and out to the Middle East… FROM THE HORN OF AFRICA.
It goes from HIGHER (horn of Africa) to LOWER (north Africa & Mid East/Eurasia) concentrations. Do you dispute this?
Now, some researchers don’t like the implication of this FACT. It’s distasteful to them. So like you and your eurocentist cohorts they will try to explain it away with clever semantics. For Example:
Concerning E1b1b, Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that although E1b1b “arose in East Africa, approximately 25000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years” and so it is “often incorrectly described as ‘African’” in a sense that creates a “misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup”, which has pervaded the public and media.
I’ll translate: “we are uncomfortable with the broad results and their implications. So there are certain minuscule sub-clades that maybe, might, perhaps, could have been, but we’re really not sure, European for “thousands of years.” Even though 99% of the groups are African in origin and have been around for 25,000 years, we will cleverly use the words “appear” and a vaguely undesignated “thousands of years” to deflect the veracity of the broader results. We don’t want to lose our funding.”
Diffusion moves from higher to lower concentrations. There’s no way around it thought semantics, in order to not upset the paradigm.
Have a good life Kells. There’s no reasoning with a zealot and ideologue.
As the great Hillel once said: “Go and study…”
*Eli
Kells,*
*Last post. You say: “these populations have Caucasian and Arab DNA floating about thru their veins.” Are you saying Arabs are not caucasians? I thought they were? I think by your little slip up here it shows what you and I both know, the blanket designation “caucasian” is an erroneous semantic invention that has little relevant meaning.*
Some Caucasians are Semites, but not all Semites are Caucasians. Semites (Arabs) are a heavily admixed population whose gene pool consists of a multitude of DNA lineages of Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid and even Australoid ethno-racial origin.
*Also, so you think these mysterious “caucasians” back migrated into Africa with their E1b1b and T “caucasoid” haplotypes?
Sorry kid, look at any credible and comprehensive mapping of these two haplotype groups. The HIGHEST concentrations of these groups are found in the horn of Africa. They then diffuse up to northern parts of Africa and out to the Middle East… FROM THE HORN OF AFRICA.
It goes from HIGHER (horn of Africa) to LOWER (north Africa & Mid East/Eurasia) concentrations. Do you dispute this?*
Actually, Y-DNA haplogroup E is of Asian origin and only exists in Africa by virtue of a back migration of anatomically modern human beings which occurred during the Upper Paleolithic. This makes sense, because Haplogroup DE, as defined by the YAP+ insertion signature, is descended from CT in South Asia. Later, D eventually branched from DE in Asia, which was followed ten thousand years later by the divergence of Haplogroup E. Moreover, the M168 mutation (CT) from which DE originated is only found on all Y chromosomes, except for those of entirely negro African origin such as A and B; as well, D is geographically restricted to the Asian continent. Haplogroup CF diverged from CT at a similar time to the emergence of DE, yet is nowhere found in Africa but occurs together with DE and E in Asia. Hence, the general absence of CF and D in Africa, as well as the non-Negroid origin of M168, suggests an Asian origin for E.
These results have also been confirmed by the 2007 research of Chandrasekar et. al. who writes:
Our findings of the presence of the YAP insertion in northeast Indian tribes and Andaman islanders with haplogroup D indicate that some of the M168 chromosomes have given rise to the YAP insertion and M174 mutation in south Asia. The presence of C*, YAP insertion and F* in India (Kivisild et al. 2003; Cordaux et al. 2004; Sengupta et al. 2006; Thangaraj et al. 2003) suggests that the Y chromosome is well differentiated into major lineages in south Asia. Then they moved towards southeast Asia and the Andaman Islands. Andamanese maternal links have been established through mtDNA M31 lineage with the eastern part of India in the Rajbansi of West Bengal (Palanichamy et al. 2006) and the Pauri Bhuiya of Orissa (our unpublished data). After reaching the southern part of East Asia descendants of the initial dispersal, led to a northward diaspora thus peopling across all of East Asia (Su et al. 1999). Some of the YAP insertion chromosomes without the M174 mutation reached the Mediterranean via Central Asia and gave rise to the E lineage with mutations at M40 and M96 (~31 000 years ago; Hammer et al. 1998). This E lineage back-migrated to Africa through the Levant as hypothesized by Hammer et al. (1997) and Altheide and Hammer (1997). It is also evident that haplotype E-M34 chromosomes were probably introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East (Cruciani et al. 2004). The hypothesis of a back migration from Asia to Africa is strongly supported by the current phylogeography of the Y-chromosome variation, because haplogroup K2 and paragroup R1b*, both belonging to the otherwise Asiatic macro haplogroup K, have only been observed at high frequencies in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002; Luis et al. 2004). Thus the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin. Likewise the M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. In the light of recent findings by Olivieri et al. (2006) the scenario of a back migration into Africa is supported by two features of mtDNA: M1 (with an estimated coalescence time of 38.6+/-7.1 ky) and U6 (with an estimated coalescence time of 45.1+/-6.9 ky), which are predominantly north African clades arose in southwestern Asia and differentiated into their major sub-clades while they were in the Mediterranean area and only later some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8+/-4.9 ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0+/-7.3 ky) and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6+/-7.3 ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant. Thus modern humans used a southern coastal route for their ‘Out of Africa’ exit, and the Levantine route from Asia to Africa for ‘back migration’.
*Now, some researchers don’t like the implication of this FACT. It’s distasteful to them. So like you and your eurocentist cohorts they will try to explain it away with clever semantics. For Example:
Concerning E1b1b, Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that although E1b1b “arose in East Africa, approximately 25000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years” and so it is “often incorrectly described as ‘African’” in a sense that creates a “misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup”, which has pervaded the public and media.
I’ll translate: “we are uncomfortable with the broad results and their implications. So there are certain minuscule sub-clades that maybe, might, perhaps, could have been, but we’re really not sure, European for “thousands of years.” Even though 99% of the groups are African in origin and have been around for 25,000 years, we will cleverly use the words “appear” and a vaguely undesignated “thousands of years” to deflect the veracity of the broader results. We don’t want to lose our funding.”*
Geography =/= race. The latest archeological evidence, as derived from ancient crania and skeletal remains, indicates that the first East Africans were of non-Negroid origin. So even if Haplogroup E did originate in east Africa, it may well have found its origins in the gene pool of a Caucasoid or pre-Caucasoid population. Concerning the racial affinities of Paleolithic East Africans, WW Howells writes (1995):
(…) The DISPOP results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these skulls. Display of POPKIN distances (infra) reinforces this and seems to find nearer neighbors among such more generalized populations as Peru, Guam, or Ainu, but also Europeans or even Easter Island.
Remembering that the Teita series (Bantu speakers of southeastern Kenya), and the recent East African skulls in table 4 above, do clearly exhibit African affiliations, it is fair to say, contra Rightmire, that there seems to be no clear continuity here in late prehistory. On the broad scale, looking at an “Out-of-Africa” scenario, one would expect that, in some region between southern and northeastern Africa, some differentiation would have been taking place within a Homo sapiens stock, evolving into something beginning to approximate later Sub-Saharan peoples on the one hand, and evolving in another direction on the other hand. East Africa would be a likely locale for appearance of the latter. So anyone is welcome to argue that this is what Elmenteita et al. are manifesting. The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have beeen changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other “Negroid” tribes.
*Diffusion moves from higher to lower concentrations. There’s no way around it thought semantics, in order to not upset the paradigm.*
Again, Hg DE and CF originated from M168 chromosomes in Asia, a mutation which is found on all Y chromosomes except for those of exclusively Negroid origin. D split from DE in Asia, followed by E; however, neither D nor CF are found in Africa. Yet, DE, CF, D and E occur together in Asia. This clearly establishes an Asian origin for E. And even if E originated in East Africa, it wouldn’t matter anyway because all of the latest archeological research indicates that the first East Africans were of non-Negroid origin.
for me there is a simple argument against the hypothesis that Egyptians were black, and it is their current status as a mixed race people. There wasn´t enough white immigration, either from Europe of the Middle East, to left such a fair people. White immigration to Egypt always involved a few thousand individuals, like Greeks with Ptolemy, and was never a recurrent event. But blacks were a completely different story. Egypt bordered black Africa, and while there were only small outburts of a few thousands whites immigrating (ALexander, Roman conquest, Arab conquest, cruzaders raping local girls, then only a few hundred turkish slaves every year), there was a permanent flow of maybe several thousand blacks every year to Egypt, voluntarily or involuntarily, since the time of Ramses until today
it is impossible to make a case where na original black people got “lighter” since Ramses, while it completely natural to imagine how na original white population got mullatto. By the same reasoning, even a “brown” Egypt is unrealistic, unless the white/black shares of immigration equaled the populations´.
once you realize how black immigration to Egypt was na order of magnitude above White immigration since at least Ramses, the case for a Black Egypt disappears
so I only ask Black Supremacists this: how did Egyptians got mulato? If they answer that Ancient Egypt was mulato, thus imploding any Black claims to Egyptian glory, then explain to me which flow of white people could match the natural flow of Negroes from Africa that was quite obvious from the beginning
last but not least, no one can deny that from all current Egyptians, it is Christian-Coptic minority the one who can claim the greatest resemblance with ancient Egyptians.
Sadly for Black Supremacists, Copts are significantly fairer than the rest of the population. Now, all the white immigration since Muhammad merged with muslim EGyptians, there was not a single input of foreign white blood into Coptic DNA since the Roman Empire. Arabs and Turks came as muslims, and muslims they remained.
Imagine Peru and Bolivia. It is obvious that the average Peruvian or Bolivian greatly resembles his ancestors in 1400 AD. And yet Peru and Bolivia were subject to Armageddon levels of population replacement. Unless blacks can show that Egypt suffered a shock much bigger than the Spanish conquest of the Inca EMpire, it is impossible to explain how Black Egyptians turned into today´s mulattoes
“Dani/Eli”
That was not a “slip-up” “Dani/Eli” it was intentional. Arabs and Whites have different arranged haplogroups. You are a Jew and not racially White, you have different haplogroups than Arabs and Whites. Note the wording of the study below:
“The result of HLA class I and class II antigen frequencies show that the Somali population appear more similar to Arab or Caucasoid than to African populations.” (An international journal published for the British Blood Transfusion Society “Characteristics of HLA Class I and Class II Antigens of the Somali Population” Transfusion Medicine Volume 16 Issue s1, Pages 47 – 47 8 Sep 2006; Journal compilation © 2009 British Blood Transfusion Society)
Before the Arab invasion of North Africa in 700A.D. those were White Caucasians inhabiting those regions therefore all of the studies that I have cited show White Caucasian DNA in those regions. You have not denied it. Blonde, Red, Brown hair and blue eyes are not as common in the Arab population as it is in the White population.
“We show that the MAIN INDIGENOUS North African cluster is a SISTER GROUP to the most ancient cluster of EUROPEAN mtDNAs, FROM WHICH IT DERIVED »50,000 years ago.” (“The Emerging Tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region Sequences and RFLPs” Institute of Molecular Medicine, University of Oxford)
What is there to dispute? These are known facts… your misinformation is wrong. Yes lets see what Coffman-Levy has to say about “E”:
Haplogroup E
“[a]lthough E3b arose in East Africa, approximately 25000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years”. E3b is “often incorrectly described as ‘African’” in the sense that it creates a “misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup”, and that such misinformation about this haplogroup continued to pervade the public and media. (Coffman-Levy 2005)
“I should probably clarify that I was not attempting in my article to contradict Semino or Cruciani regarding the ultimate origins of haplogroup E3b in Africa. I was merely pointing out that to continue to think and write about haplogroup E3b and, in particular, certain sub-clades of E3b as African in origin was simplistic and potentially misleading. It is rather like saying that haplogroup R1b is Middle Eastern/Transcaucasian merely because the haplogroup originated in Anatolia tens of thousands of years ago. And it was clear to me even many years ago when I wrote the article that some clades of E3b did not arise in Africa, but elsewhere in the world. Thus, to refer to clades like E-M78 as “African” because the UEP that defines the parental haplogroup originated in Africa gives the wrong impression about the origins, history and distribution of many of the sub-clades, some of which may occur in greater population frequency than the original parental haplogroup itself. (Ellen Coffman 31 October 2008)
“By labeling E3b “African,” we risk ignoring the very historical and genetic complexity, diversity and unusual population distribution of the E3b group as a whole. (November 2008 Ellen Coffman)
Chandrasekar et al. (2007), Shi et al. (2008), and Hai (2008) indicate that the entire E haplogroup is of Asian origin. E1b1b is Caucasoid-specific
“The man who gave rise to marker M35 [E3b] was born around 20,000 years ago in the Middle East. His descendants were among the first farmers and helped spread agriculture from the Middle East into the Mediterranean region.” (“Atlas of the Human Journey>Genetic Markers>M35” The Genographic Project 2008)
Clearly labeling all E3b “black African” is nothing more than lies about the history of this lineage. Not one single genealogist has stated that it is “black.” Some European lineages are derived from “Central Asian” Paleolithic haplogroup R, yet no one calls R lineages in Europe Central Asian and those who are classified as “Asian” did not give rise to Europeans but rather that ancient Europeans inhabited such areas as the Middle East, Asia, North Africa, etc
Haplogroup T
“After haplogroup E1b1b, formerly E3b the second most frequently occurring Y DNA haplogroup among Somalis is the Eurasian Haplogroup T (M70) which is found in slightly more than 10% of Somali males. Haplogroup T, like haplogroup E1b1b, is also typically found among populations of Northeast Africa, North Africa, Southwest Asia and the Mediterranean.” (Underhill et al., “The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations” American Journal of Human Genetics 2004)
“All Ethiopian and Yemeni haplogroup T sequences clustered with either T1 or T2 subclades, consistent with the classification of all existing EUROPEAN T coding-region sequences (Ingman et al. 2000; McMahon et al. 2000; Finnilä et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Coble et al. 2004).” (Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears Toomas Kivisild et al., 2004)
“we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T.” (“Near Eastern Neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert” Kujanová M, Pereira L, Fernandes V, Pereira JB, Cerný V; American Journal of Physical Anthropology 2009)
[NOTE: The last Russian tsar, Nicholas II, that you Jews murdered, has been shown to be of haplogroup T. (ISOGG’s Famous DNA) , this includes all female-line descendants of his female line ancestor Barbara of Celje (1390-1451), wife of Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor. This includes a great number of European nobles, including George I of Great Britain and Frederick William I of Prussia (through the Electress Sophia of Hanover), Charles I of England, George III of the United Kingdom, George V of the United Kingdom, Charles X Gustav of Sweden, Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, Maurice of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Olav V of Norway, and George I of Greece. Haplogroup T derives from the haplogroup JT, which also gave rise to haplogroup J. Haplogroup T is thought to have originated in Mesopotamia/the Fertile Crescent approximately 10,000-12,000 years ago, and then moved northwest into Europe and east as far as modern Pakistan and India. T has high concentrations around the eastern Baltic Sea. Its many branches are widely distributed throughout southern and western Europe with particularly high concentrations in Ireland and the west of Britain.” (Oxford Ancestors Maternal Ancestry)
A and B are the negroid yDNA haplogroups. E and T are NOT negroid specific despite the fact that some negroids OBTAINED it from Neolithic CAUCASIAN gene flow into East Africa including the Fulani in sub-Sahara Africa.
You hate the facts and invent your own “realities”; you have zero credentials “Dani/Eli.” You were born with an inability to reason inductively which is why you have been easily thoroughly refuted and debunked little boy. You are an Afrocentric mental deficient that feels the need to conjure up some far out imagined vision of someone you hold animosity against, and hold an irrational fear of facts concerning matters that transpired centuries ago. You’ve been proven to be a liar a fraud and a phony, who is too cowardly to answer direct questions thus your nonsensical constant tap dancing.
It’s unnecessary to attack someone holding a revolver who keeps shooting themselves; all you have to do is wait.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002232
Nice picture set.